tUT 


U.S.  CONGRESS.  HOUSE.  COMMITTEE  ON  ACCOUNTS 
Electrical  and  mechanical  system  of  voting 


V] 


I'  ^' 


-.>^<V 


^^. 


ELECTRICAL  AND  MECHANICAL  SYSTEM 

OF  VOTING 

HEARING 

BEFORE  THE 

COMMITTEE  ON  ACCOUNTS 

HOUSE  OF  REPRESENTATIVES 

SIXTY-FOURTH  CONGRESS 
First  Session 

ON 

H.  RES.  223 

A  RESOLUTION  AUTHORIZING  THE  PURCHASE  AND  INSTAL- 
LATION OF  AN  ELECTRICAL  AND  MECHANICAL 
SYSTEM  OF  VOTING  IN  THE  HOUSE 
OF  REPRESENTATIVES 


4 


WASHINGTON 

GOVERNMKNT  IMIINTINO  OFFICE 

IblO 


ELECTRICAL  A.M)  MECHAxMCAL  SYSTEM  OF  VOTIKG. 


Committee  on  Accounts, 

House  of  Eepresentatives, 

Monday,  Mcy  15,  1916. 

The  committee  this  day  met,  Hon.  James  T.  Lloyd  (chairman) 

presiding. 

^^    Tlie  Chairman.  We  have  met   this  morinng  for  the  purpose   of 

N^having  a  h'^iripo;  on  House  resolution  ^  o.  223,  introduced  by  Mr. 

'K>Howard.     Mr.  Howard  is  here  and  we  will  be  glad  to  hear  from  him. 

Statement  of  hon.  william  s.  howaed,  a  representa- 

^  TIVE   in    congress    from    the    state    of   GEORGIA. 

y       Mr.  Howard.  Mr.  Chairman,  this  is  a  resolution  introduced  by  me 
^  at  the  suggestion  of  several  of  the  officials  of  the  House  and  many 
"^Members  of  the  House.     The  purpose  of  this  legif^lation  is  to  appoint 
-^^   a  committee  to  investigate  the  advisability  of  purchasing  a  system 
\J   b}-  which  the  vote  of  the  House  can  be  recorded  accurately  and  more 
promptly  than  it  is  under  the  present  system.     During  a  long  session 
5^   of  Congi-ess  some  mathematician,  a  Member  of  the  House,  figured 
\   the  time  consumed  by  Congress  in  calling  the  roll  during  that  session 
of  Con.gress,  and  it  amounted,  I  think,  to  56  days  of  that  long  session. 
That  was  the  time  consumed  in  roll  calls.     There  is  another  e  \  il  about 
our  present  system,  and  I  think  the  Speaker  and  the  chairman  of 
every  ])romincnt  committee  in  the  Hjuso,  and  all  of  the  old  M  nibers 
who  hav e  been  here  for  years,  will  agree  that  under  the  ])r(^sent  sys- 
tem the  business  of  Congress  being  so  great,  an.d  the  work  f  allin.g  upon 
^  the  sh()uld(n-s  of  Members  of  Congress  is  reaching  such  proportions 
»]s^  that  it  is  almost  im]);)ssiblc  for  Members  to  devote  the  time  to^kgis 


^ 


y;;j   lativc  matters  that  they  should.     The  close  proximity  of  the  House 
Office  Building  makes  it  so  easy  for  any  one  Member  at  any  time, 
if  lie  desires  to  do  it,  to  tie  u])  the  delil)erations  of  the  House  for  a 
peri(»d  extending  from  an  hour  to  two  hours  l)y  making  jjoints  of  no 
^   (juonnn. 

^        I  was  licre  over  20  years  ago  as  private  secretary  to  a  Hen.ator.     At 
\    that  time  they  did  not  huxc  any  office  building;  the  offices  w(  re  scat- 
ty    t<'red  all  over  tlie  town,  an.d  when  the  House*,  met  at  11   o'clock  or 
^   12  o'clock,  as  it  does  now,  all  of  tlie  Memlx^rs  would  gather  in  the 
House  and  they  would  stay  on  the  door  of  the  House  during  all  of  the 
[K    s(\ssion,  so  that  it  was  the  rarest  of  occurrences  for  a  point  of  no 
■^s   quorum  to  be  nuide  and  no  nuorum  found.      I  believe  that  if  some 
R    system  ca?i  be  found  l)y  whicli  we  can  save  th'>  40  minutes  which  it 
takes  to  make  a  roll  call-  I  believe  that  is  the  tim(»,  is  it  not,  Mr. 
South? 

Mr.  South.   From  10  to  1.">  minutes. 


45i  G5S 


4  ELECTRICAL    AND    MECHANICAL    SYSTEM    OF    VOTING. 

Mr.  Howard.  Well,  an  average  of  40  minutes.  I  believe  if  some 
system  eould  be  found  by  whieh  that  time  could  be  saved  it  would  be 
of  great  benefit  in  carrying  on  the  business  of  the  House. 

The  Chairman.  In  order  to  protect  the  reading  clerks,  who  dislike 
very  much  to  have  it  go  on  record  as  consuming  that  much  time,  you 
will  ])arilon  me  for  saying  that  the  reading  clerks  insist  that  they  can 
call  tlie  roll  in  25  minutes,  but  they  nuist  call  the  roll  twice,  and  that 
accounts  for  it  taking  40  minutes. 

Mr.  Howard.  Yes;  I  mean  a  complete  roll  call;  I  did  not  mean 
that  the  roll  was  called  once;  I  mean  it  consumes  that  time  under 
our  S3-stem  of  calling  the  roll  a  second  time. 

Then,  another  thmg  is  this:  Inaccuracies  in  roll  calls  are  obliged 
to  occur,  and  for  this  reason:  While  the  roll  is  being  called  there  is 
so  much  confusion  on  the  floor  of  the  House,  and  it  is  called  with 
such  rapidity,  that  the  tally  clerks,  as  a  rule,  can  hardly  hear  the  ' 
responses,  and  the  clerk  can  hardly  hear  them.  As  you  gentlemen 
know  from  your  experience  in  Congress  there  is  hardly  a  morning, 
after  a  roll  call  of  the  previous  day,  that  one  or  more  gentlemen  do 
not  get  up  to  correct  the  roll  call.  That  is  not  so  much  an  evil,  if 
you  may  term  it  an  evil,  but  it  is  a  waste  of  time. 

I  do  not  believe  it  will  be  possible  to  have  any  more  short  sessions 
of  Congress,  because  the  business  of  this  country  has  grown  immensely 
in  the  last  few  years  and  governmental  activities  are  increasing  every 
day,  but  I  do  believe  that  we  could  lop  off  under  this  system,  in  a 
long  session,  not  less  than  30  days,  and  I  am  going  to  tell  you  why. 
Some  electrical  system,  such  as  has  been  installed  in  the  State 
Legislature  of  Wisconsin,  and  such  as  is  presented  to  the  Members 
here  for  their  personal  observation  by  the  gentleman  who  has  this 
electrical  device  here,  will  not  only  save  at  least  30  minutes  on  each 
roll  call,  but  I  believe  it  will  have  a  tendency  to  keep  Members  on  the 
floor  of  the  House,  and  keep  them  on  the  floor  from  the  time  the 
House  meets  until  it  adjourns.     And  there  is  where  we  lose  our  time. 

Mr.  Hicks.  You  propose  to  economize  in  time  by  the  use  of  this 
system  and  you  think  that  will  preclude  Members  from  taking  the 
time  to  come  over  to  the  House  on  each  roll  call  ? 

Mr.  Howard.  Yes;  that  is  it.  For  instance,  I  understand  that 
under  this  device  not  only  can  the  Members  vote,  but  the  vote  being 
counted  automatically  by  some  system  which  is  on  the  Speaker's 
desk,  a  little  meter,  will  be  known  almost  at  once,  the  ayes  and  nays 
and  those  present.  This  system,  as  I  understand  it,  contemplates 
each  man  having  a  key  to  vote  with  and  nobody  else  can  vote  for 
him.     It  is  perfectly  accurate,  and  if  a  man  wants  to  change  his 

vote 

Mr.  Hicks  (interposing).  You  contemplate,  then,  domg  away 
entirely  with  the  necessity  of  a  Member  coming  from  the  House 
Office  Building  to  the  House  to  vote,  which  will  save  at  least  four  or 
five  minutes  ? 

Mr.  Howard.  Yes;  absolutely.  We  could  have  a  rule  that,  say, 
five  minutes  after  the  question  has  been  put  the  ballot  shall  be 
closed. 

Mr.  Hastings.  That  would  have  to  be  by  rule  of  the  House? 
Mr.  Howard.  Yes,   sir.     Of  course,    this  system    would    not    be 
worth  a  penny  if  wo  were  going  to  allow  40  or  50  minutes  for  Mem- 
bers to  come  in  and  record  their  votes. 


ELECTRICAL    AND   MECHANICAL   SYSTEM    OF    VOTING.  5 

Mr.  Miller.  Last  year  experiments,  I  understand,  showed  that 
10  minutes  should  be  the  hmit. 

Mr.  Howard.  Yes,  sir.  Mr.  Walsh,  of  New  Jersey,  who  is  an 
electrician  and  who  was  a  Member  of  the  last  House,  made  a  thorough 
investigation  of  an  electrical  system.  I  believe  he  was  an  expert 
electri(!ian,  and  Mr.  Wnlsh  figured  that  at  least  25  minutes  on  each 
roll  call  could  be  saved  by  this  system. 

Now,  so  far  as  this  matter  is  concerned,  I  have  given,  of  course, 
but  little  study  to  it. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  know  an vthing  about  the  cost  of  it  ? 

Mr.  Howard.  I  do  not. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  different  devices 
that  have  been  suggested  for  use  by  the  House  ? 

Mr.  Howard.  The  only  system  that  I  know  anythmg  about  is  the 
one  which  has  been  suggested  to  Members  of  the  House  by  ]\Ir. 
Bo])roff.  I  believe  that  experiments  with  it  have  shown  that  it  is 
absohitel}"  eflficient  and  accurate  and  that  it  is  easily  understood. 
I  refer  to  the  s^^stem  which  has  been  ])resented  to  Members  of  the 
House  in  the  old  Ways  and  Means  Committee  room  by  Mi-.  Bobroff. 

Tlie  Chairman.  You  mean  the  system  which  is  here  to-da}'^  ? 

Mr.  Howard.  Yes,  sir;  and  that  sytem,  it  occurs  to  me,  would 
serve  every  purpose,  and  it  would  amount  to  a  saving  of  days,  if  not 
weeks,  during  every  session  of  Congress. 

Mr.  Hicks.  Do  you  contemplate  taking  out  the  present  seating 
arrangement  and  restoring  the  desks? 

Mr.  Howard.  I  do  not  know  what  would  be  best  to  do  under  those 
circumstances. 

Mr.  Hastings.  Would  not  that  be  necessary  with  this  device  that 
you  have  here? 

Mr.  Howard.  Well,  if  Members  felt  that  they  had  to  do  their  own 
work  while  they  were  on  the  floor  of  the  House,  if  they  had  to  do  a 
great  amount  of  writing  by  virtue  of  staying  right  on  the  floor  within 
the  sound  of  the  gong,  then,  of  course,  we  would  have  to  have  some 
different  system  than  now  exists. 

Tlie  Chairman.  There  are  two  reasons  which  account  for  the  fact 
that  we  have  no  quorum.  One  is  the  fact  that  desks  have  been  taken 
out  of  the  House  of  Representatives,  and  the  other  fact  is  that  we 
have  electric  b(>lls. 

Mr.  Howard.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Cilmrman.  Prior  to  the  time  of  the  installation  of  the  ]>resent 
>oating  system,  when  every  man  liad  his  own  desk  and  his  own  seat, 
we  liad  no  electric  bells,  and  there  was  a  quorum  on  every  important 
occasion.  The  question  of  no  quorum  was  seldom,  if  ever,  raised, 
and  tlierc  was  no  oer.-ision  to  rais(>  it,  because  there  was  a  quorum 
pre-;ent. 

Mr.  Howard.  Tliat  is  true. 

The  CiiAirtMAN'.  But  getting  back  to  the  other  thing,  you  realize, 
pcrli!i|)s,  as  evervl)ody  else  (hx-s,  that  it  would  he  nhnosl  impossible 
to  elumge  the  present  system  so  iis  to  avoid  using  the  eh'ctric  hells; 
we  hfive  got  the  electrir  bells  and  people  are  tising  them,  and  I  sup- 
pose* it  woidd  be  an  im|)ossil)le  thing  to  s(H-ure  a  nnijority  vote  in 
favor  of  doing  away  with  the  electric-bell  system,  and  yet  the  electric- 
bell  system  lias  done  more  to  disorgnni/e  (he  Hmmc  fh.in  anv  (me 
thing  that  ever  happened. 


6  ELECTRICAL    AND    MECHANICAL    SYSTEM    OF    VOTING. 

"Mv.  lIowAKi).  I  will  say  this,  that  in  the  last  Congress  I  introduced 
a  resolution  to  abolish  the  second  roll  call. 

Mr.  Miller.  What  about  the  man  whose  name  is  at  the  lirst  part 
of  the  alphabet? 

Mr.  Howard.  The  proposition  was  to  serve  the  very  purpose  that 
this  system  is  devised  to  serve.  I  can  remember,  and  so  can  every 
other* Memlier  of  the  Sixty-second  Congress,  when  we  were  havirg 
quite  a  number  of  fights  on  the  floor,  that  points  of  ro  (piorum  would 
be  nuule  three  or  four  or  five  times  a  day  in  order  to  assist  in  carrying 
on  a  filibuster.  As  a  nnvtter  of  fact,  it  would  (k^velop  every  time  the 
point  of  no  quorum  was  made  that  no  ([uoruni  was  present,  and  that 
necessitated  calling  the  roll,  and  we  would  ac('om{)lish  practically 
nothing  that  day.  I  admit  that  sometimes  the  power  of  th(^  fihbuster 
is  a  ver}^  valuable  adjunct,  esi)ecially  to  the  minority,  ard  I  am  will- 
ing to  admit  that  it  would  probably  k,^ep  a  good  many  Members  of 
the  House  from  doing  things  during  the  sessions  of  the  House  that 
they  are  now'  doing,  that  is,  in  the  way  of  office  work.  But  we  gen- 
erally meet  at  11  or  12  o'clock;  that  is  the  general  rule  during  ordi- 
nary sessions  of  Congress.  I  do  not  k  low^  a  body  of  men  with  whom 
I  have  ever  come  in  contact  who  are  harder  work'n's  than  Members 
of  Congress — it  is  absolutely  necessary  for  tluun  to  keep  steacUly  at 
work  or  get  irretrievably  behin.d. 

The  Chairman.  What  have  you  to  say  as  to  whether  or  not  the 
system  you  suggest  would  preserve  the  rights  of  the  minority  at  all 
times  ?  As  you  know,  one  of  the  rights  of  the  minority  is  the  right 
of  filibuster. 

Mr.  Howard.  Yes;  it  is  a  right,  in  a  sense,  under  parliamentary 
procedure,  but  at  the  same  time  it  is  a  question  whether  that  right 
is  always  exercised  for  the  best  interests  of  the  country. 

Tne  Chairman.  We  kaow  it  is  not,  because  a  man  who  makes  a 
poi'^t  of  order  does  it  out  of  some  pique. 

^Ii\  Howard.  Precisely. 

The  Chairman.  It  is  not  because  of  any  public  good  that  is  to  be 
served  by  it.  Nearly  every  roll  call  that  we  have,  every  time  a  point 
of  order  is  made,  it  is  because  some  Member  is  a  little  bit  piqued. 

Mr.  How^ard.  It  is  to  force  a  compromise,  as  a  rule. 

The  Chairman.  Yes.  A  man  who  wants  to  speak  is  not  allowed 
to  speak,  and  then  he  makes  the  House  pay  for  it,  and  he  can  do  it 
very  readily. 

Mr.  Howard.  That  is  true.  How^ever,  the  question  simply  re- 
solves itself  into  this:  That  this  committee  present  it  to  the  House 
if  they  think  it  is  worthy  and  say:  Do  we  want  to  economize  the  time 
of  Congress?  If  we  do,  something  of  this  sort  should  be  adopted. 
Since  the  reapportionment  was  made  the  membership  of  the  House 
has  increased,  as  you  know,  and  the  number  will  continue  to  increase 
as  the  country  growls;  if  I  live  my  allotted  time  I  expect  to  see  600 
Members  on  the  floor  of  the  House.  That  being  so,  we  have  got  to 
get  away  from  the  antiquated  system  of  roll  call ;  we  have  got  to  have 
some  system  of  recording  the  will  of  the  House  more  rapidly  than  we 
have  under  the  present  system.  There  is  no  question  about  that,  and 
it  is  a  fact  that  now  we  can  hardly  attend,  and  we  do  not  attend,  to 
the  small  affairs  of  the  Government  as  we  should  attend  to  them  for 
the  simple  reason  we  have  no  time. 


ELECTRICAL   AND    MECHANICAL    SYSTEM    OF    VOTING.  7 

Mr.  Miller.  What  do  you  say  about  the  constitutional  provision 
as  to  certain  classes  of  resolutions  and  bills  or  veto  messages,  that  there 
shall  be  a  roll  call  by  the  clerk,  and  the  vote  actually  determined  by 
yeas  and  nays  ? 

Mr.  Ho^VARl).  Well,  under  those  conditions,  of  course,  we  would 
have  to  comply  with  that  provision. 

Mr.  Hicks.  Just  what  do  you  refer  to  ? 

Mr.  Miller.  You  mi^^ht  have  to  have  a  roll  call,  for  instance,  under 
Article  I,  section  7,  of  the  Constitution. 

Mr.  Hicks.  But  this  system  would  record  the  vote. 

Mr.  Miller.  I  have  heard  that  point  raised  about  this  very  matter. 

The  Chairman.  That  raises  this  question:  What  constitutes  a  roll 
call  i  Those  who  advocate  that  theory  insist  that  it  is  not  a  roll  call 
unless  the  name  of  the  individual  has  been  pronounced  aloud  and  he 
has  had  an  opportunity  to  reply,  but  I  do  not  think  that  would  be  the 
construction  of  the  courts.  A  roll  call  is  the  ascertainment  for  the 
record  of  how  each  individual  desu'es  his  vote  to  be  cast.  It  could 
very  easily  be  handled  under  the  rules,  I  suppose,  by  having  the  rules 
properly  amended. 

Mr.  Howard.  There  is  another  phase  right  here  that  I  would  hke  to 
mention  to  this  committee,  because  I  know  you  gentlemen  are  experi- 
enced. There  have  been  many  bills  passed  by  the  House  by  viva  voce 
on  which  I  would  hke  very  much  to  have  been  recorded,  in  writing, 
if  necessary.  I  would  hke  to  have  shown  how  I  felt  about  the  matters 
and  wheth(>r  I  was  either  in  favor  of  or  against  them.  I  liave  been 
retarcknl  in  my  zeal  to  be  recorded  for  the  simple  reason  that  Mem- 
bers want  to  economize  in  time.  But  under  this  system,  if  we 
wanted  to  be  recorded,  so  much  time  would  not  be  taken.  A  man 
would  say  to  himself:  This  is  an  important  measure  and  I  would 
hke  to  have  my  peo])le  know  exactly  how  I  stand  on  the  proposition. 
And  if  it  would  only  tak?  about  five  minutes  most  all  of  the  Members 
would  be  wiUing  to  submit  to  a  record  vote. 

Ui.der  this  system,  as  it  has  been  explained  to  me,  not  only  can 
the  roll  call  be  recorded  in  five  minutes  l)ut  the  o{)erator  of  this  ma- 
chine can  take  a  photograph  of  that  roll  call  in  32  secoiuls,  aid  he 
can  make  as  many  of  them  as  he  wants,  and  he  can  hand  one  to 
each  M(  ruber  if  he  wants  it.  Mr.  South,  who  has  had  a  great  deal 
of  experience  in  miking  up  tlie  Congressional  Record,  mentioned  to 
me  that  a  great  saving  could  l)e  make  by  these  photograi)hic  records 
of  the  vote,  which  are  made  in  32  seconds. 

So  far  as  tli(^  technical  construction  of  this  machine  is  conceriunl, 
it  is  a  wond(Mfid  nia<liin(!   - 

Mr.  llicKs  (interj)osing).  In  what  way  did  Mr.  South  suggest  that 
a  gnuit  saving  could  be  nnide  ( 

Mr.  Howard.  Mr.  South  knows  something  about  making  up  tlie 
Record,  and  he  mentioned  something  to  me  about  it  the  other  day, 
and  I  would  b(!  glad  if  you  would  let  Mr.  South  mak(»  a  statement,  if 
lu;  desires  to  do  so,  showing  the  |)racticability  of  this  nnichiiu'. 

The  CnAiR.MAN.  Wc  will  hear  Mr.  South  after  you  (inish  your 
statement.     Now,  you  fix  the  ainoimt  at  ^\^2:')^H){)'( 

Mr.  llowAiU).  Yes,  sir. 

The  Cmaiicmax.  Have  you  any  inri»iniat  i(»n  as  to  whal  it  will 
probably  cost  ( 


8  ELECTUrCAL    AND    MECliANICAL    SYSTEM    OF    VOTING. 

Mr.  lIowAKi).  Only  what  I  have  gotten  from  the  gentleman  who 
owns  the  niaohino. 

The  CiiAiR.MAN.  Are  you  nware  that  Mr.  Walsh,  in  presenting  the 
matter  in  the  last  Congress,  suggested  that  tlie  device  could  be  put 
in  for  §25,000? 

Mr.  Howard.  I  am  not  aware  of  that;  no.  That  is  an  opinion 
that  I  know  nothing  about,  and  I  would  rather  have  you  hear  from 
those  who  know. 

Mr.  Miller.  Is  this  the  same  device  in  which  Mr.  Walsh  was 
interested  last  year? 

Mr.  HowAKD.  No;  it  is  an  entirely  different  one. 

Mr.  Miller.  Is  it  patented? 

Mr.  Howard.  Yes. 

Mr.  Hicks.  Mr.  Walsh's  resolution  appears  on  page  3  of  the  hearing 
of  July  31,  1914,  and  the  amount  carried  in  the  resolution  is  $20,000. 

The  Chairman.  You  authorize,  by  this  resolution,  the  purchase 
and  installation  of  this  device.     You  make  that  positive  ? 

Mr.  Howard.  Yes. 

The  Chairman.  And  you  authorize  a  commission  to  be  appointed 
to  make  a  selection  of  the  device  ? 

Mr.  Howard.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Hicks.  Of  course  if  this  device  is  adopted  it  means  a  change 
in  the  seating  arrangement  of  the  House,  and  it  will  have  to  be  deter- 
mined whether  desks  shall  be  put  in.  There  are  a  lot  of  Members 
who  have  to  have  some  place  to  do  their  writing,  and  if  we  could  have 
a  room  somewhere  on  the  same  floor  as  the  House  chamber,  where 
we  could  have  little  desks,  it  would  be  possible  for  us  to  carry  on  our 
correspondence,  and  that  would  obviate  the  necessity  of  having  so 
much  work  done  in  the  House  Office  Budding. 

Mr.  Howard.  If  we  could  have  some  place  adjacent  to  the  Hall 
of  the  House  where  we  could  have  our  secretaries  meet  with  us  and 
where  we  could  get  out  emergency  matters,  I  think  that  would  elimi- 
nate the  necessit}^  for  desks  on  the  floor  of  the  House,  except  that 
there  would  have  to  be  desks  in  the  Speaker's  lobby,  or  tables,  as 
there  are  now,  supplied  with  stationer}^  and  things  of  that  sort  for 
our  convenience. 

Mr.  Milt>er.  That  would  necessitate  a  subofRce  building,  and  we 
have  not  the  room  for  it  in  the  Capitol  Building. 

Mr.  Howard.  No;  it  would  not  mean  that,  because  I  never  go  to 
my  office  in  the  daytime.  I  have  not  been  in  my  office  a  half  dozen 
times  since  Christmas.  I  have  my  business  systematized.  I  dic- 
tate all  of  my  letters  at  night,  they  are  written  the  next  day,  and  I 
sign  them  at  night.  There  is  no  necessity  for  my  going  to  my  office. 
I  attend  to  my  departmental  work  in  the  morning.  But  that  is  just 
1  Member  out  of  100  and  aU  of  them  could  and  would  not  do  that. 

The  Chairman.  A  great  many  of  the  Members  simplj^  employ  a 
stenographer  here  in  Washington.  They  have  them  in  their  offices 
during  the  day  and  could  not  expect  them  to  perform  services  at 
night.  You  use  your  secretary  during  the  24  hours  at  any  time 
you  choose,  but  you  could  not  expect  a  stenographer  employed  at 
S50  or  S60  a  month  to  be  on  call  at  all  hours,  and  you  could  not 
require  such  a  stenographer  to  work  at  night. 

Mr.  Howard.  That  is  true,  and  I  admit  the  necessity  of  Members 
using  their  offices  very  largely. 


ELECTBICAL    ANT)    MECHANICAL    SYSTEM    OF    VOTING.  9 

The  Chairman.  Nearly  every  Member  of  Congress  uses  his  office 
and  you  are  considerably  of  an  exception,  I  think. 

Mr.  Howard.  Well,  I  have  my  stenographer  live  with  me,  and  all 
of  that,  you  know,  helps.  That  is  about  all,  gentlemen,  that  I 
have  to  say. 

STATEMENT  OF  ME.  B.  L.  BOBROFF.  OF  MILWAUKEE,  WIS. 

The  Chairman.  What  is  3'our  name  ? 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  My  name  is  B.  L.  Bobroff. 

The  Chairman.  What  is  your  business  ? 

Mr.  Bobroff.  Electrical  and  mechanical  engineer. 

The  Chairman.  ^Yhere  do  you  live  ? 

Mr.  Bobroff.  Milwaukee,  Wis. 

The  Chairman.  How  long  have  you  been  engaged  in  that  business  ? 

Mr.  Bobroff.  About  16  years:  since  1900. 

The  Chairman.  'Where  did  you  obtain  your  education  as  an 
electrician  ( 

Mr.  Bobroff.  My  mechanical  education  I  obtained  in  Russia, 
the  University  of  Russia,  and  my  electrical  training  I  obtained  in 
this  country.  I  attended  the  Lewis  Institute  at  night  for  two  years, 
and  for  four  years  I  attended  a  school  of  engineering  in  Milwaukee. 
I  have  b:M^n  working  for  18  months  on  special  work  with  the  engineer- 
ing staff  of  the  University  of  Madison,  for  the  Bureau  of  Efficiency 
and  Econoni}',  and  I  had  charge  of  the  water  waste  and  electrolysis 
survc}^  in  the  city  of  Milwaukee.  For  the  last  four  years  I  have  been 
engaged  in  my  own  business  as  an  efficiency  engineer. 

The  Chairman.  Have  you  any  people  employed  under  you  ? 

Mr.  Bobroff.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman.  How  many? 

Mr.  Robroff.  Four;  sometimes  five  or  more. 

The  Chairman.  Are  you  an  American  citizen  ? 

Mr.  Bobroff.  Yes,  sir;  and  I  have  always  been  since  the  expira- 
tion of  the  first  six  months  after  I  came  over  here. 

The  Chairman.  ^Yliat  do  you  mean  by  that? 

Mr.  Bobroff.  I  mean  that  I  obtained  my  first  naturalization  and 
citizenship  papers  six  months  after  I  came  over  here,  and  I  have  been 
a  citizen  now  for  11  years. 

The  Chairman.  When  did  you  obtain  your  final  papers? 

Mr.  Bobroff.  Four  years  afterwards. 

Tlie  Chairman.  Have  you  had  any  experience  with  voting  devices 
for  legislative  bodies? 

Mr.  BoiJROi'F.  I  will  say  that  I  have  made  a  study  of  the  roll-call 
question,  and,  not  only  have  I  made  a  study  of  it  from  the  surface, 
but  I  have  made  a  thorough  study  of  the  roll-call  question.  I  did  that 
when  1  began  to  work  on  that  pi-oblem  of  (k'vising  some  means  and 
ways  whereby  roll  calls  could  be  taken  instantaneously  instead  of 
(^•onsuming  as  much  time  as  it  is  doing  to-day  in  legislative  bodies. 

The  Chairman.  Have  you  installed  a  device  anywhere  for  carrying 
<tut  your  ideas  i 

Mr.  BoiJHoi  I  .  At  tlic  piesent  time  the  Wisconsin  State  Legislature 
has  adopted  if.  It  adopted  it  at  t  lie  last  session,  and  W(>  are  installing 
it  now. 

The  Chairman.   But  it  has  not  yot  been  tested  thorouglily? 


10  ELECTRICAL    AND    MECHANICAL    SYSTEM    OF    VOTING. 

Mr.  BoBijOKK.  No,  sir;  oxcoi)(  that  I  (loinonstrated  it  with  several 
units.  There  were  17  members  of  the  joint  finance  committee  and  11 
members  of  the  judiciary  committee,  the  committee  which  introduced- 
the  bill,  and  both  committees  unanimously  voted  to  adopt  it.  I  will 
say  with  reference  to  this  device,  that  if  one  unit  works,  1,000  units 
or  an  infinite  number  of  units  will  work.  They  have  no  relationship 
between  one  another,  but  they  are  just  as  you  see  them  there.  There- 
fore, it  does  not  make  any  diirerence  whether  you  have  one  unit  or  a 
lumih'ed  units,  or  any  number  of  units,  they  have  got  to  work. 

Mr.  MiLLEiL  Well,  how  many  will  you  use  in  the  Wisconsin 
Legislature  ^ 

^Ir.  BoBHOFF.  One  lunuh'cd,  exactly. 

Mr.  Hicks.  Do  you  know  of  any  other  legislative  bodies  in  which 
any  other  devices  are  in  use  for  roll-call  purposes? 

Mr.  BoBKOFF    There  is  none  in  the  United  States. 

Mr.  IIiCKs.  Of  any  manufacture '? 

Mr.  BoBKOFF.  No,  sir;  there  is  none. 

The  Chairman    Arc  there  any  in  use  in  any  other  countries? 

Mr.  BoBKOFF.  I  have  been  trying  to  find  out  about  that.  Some 
people  say  that  it  is  used  in  France,  but  I  have  never  gotten  to  the 
point  where  I  could  get  any  dehnite  information.  However,  I  doubt 
it.  It  may  be  true,  but  this  much  I  can  say,  that  from  the  researches 
I  have  made  in  England  and  Germany  I  have  not  found  anything.  As 
a  matter  of  fact,  1  have  obtained  patents  in  France.  I  have  obtained 
basic  patents  on  that  principle  in  France  and  in  Germany  and  in 
England,  and  if  there  had  been  any  device  along  that  line,  they  would 
not  have  granted  me  that  patent.  Therefore,  I  assume  that  there  is 
none. 

Mr.  Hastings.  When  will  the  installation  be  completed  in  Wis- 
co.'isin  ? 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  We  have  until  next  December,  but  the  entire  propo- 
sition largely  depeivls  upon  our  getting  son^e  material  which  we  have 
to  obtain  for  that  purpose.  It  has  a  good  deal  to  do  with  the  war. 
The  gentlemen  owning  the  concern  from  which  we  n  ust  obtain  the 
matcn-ial  are  very  busy,  and  this  takes  a  great  deal  of  time.  However, 
I  contemplate  that  the  thing  will  be  ready  in  120  days. 

The  Chairman.  Suppose  you  explain  in  your  own  w'ay  what  you 
will  install  on  the  floor  of  the  House.  Explain  in  your  own  way  how 
you  will  install  the  device. 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  Last  year  that  resolution  was  introduced  by  Con- 
gres.-mm  Walsh,  and  you  will  see  from  the  hearings  held  at  that 
particular  time  that  Mr.  Walsh  did  not  have  anything  definite  wath 
reference  to  the  device.  He  assumed  that  son^e  device  could  be 
gotten  up  and  made  to  work.  When  1  heard  of  that  resolution  I 
hafl  been  working  for  (piite  a  number  of  years  u?)on  a  device  M^hich 
had  that  very  ])rinciple.  I  wrote  on  here,  and  it  was  suggested  in 
reply  that  I  come  on  and  show  what  I  had.  When  I  came  here  some 
suggestions  were  made  by  Mr.  Clark,  Mr.  LTndcrwood,  and  some  other 
gentlemen.  I  think  the  chairman  also  made  some  suggestions  as  to 
the  purpf)se  it  would  serve,  and  as  to  what  would  be  de, minded  of  me 
if  I  should  want  to  install  it  in  a  legislative  body.  I  have  incorporated 
a}\  of  it  here,  I  think.  I  take  as  a  basis  the  vacant  panels  adjacent  to 
the  Speaker's  (h'sk.  There  is  a  vacant  panel  on  the  Democratic  side 
and  a  vacant  panel  on  the  Republican  side  of  the  House.     I  have  to 


ELECTRICAL    AND    MECHANICAL    SYSTEM    OF    VOTING.  11 

provide  for  450  or  460  nances.  That  space,  I  think,  is  about  10  feet 
hy  0  feet,  or  something  Uke  it,  and  I  have  divided  it  into  so  many 
units.  Then  I  have  ctesigned  a  letter  of  that  size  [hidioating],  so 
that  you  wouki  be  able  to  see  it  from  every  part  of  the  Hall.  I  have 
put  it  up  there.  Mr.  South  helped  me  at  that  time  to  put  it  up  in 
order  that  we  might  see  just  what  Avas  the  proper  size.  It  worked 
out  most  satisfactorily.  It  is  just  as  you  see  it  there,  and  if  you 
should  have  435  or  450  names,  you  could  put  it  in  that  space  there. 

Mr.  Hicks.  How  much  would  that  be — half  of  it? 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  No,  sir;  all  of  it.  It  is  on  either  side.  Then,  I  con- 
template this,  putting  one  board  on  the  Democratic  side  of  the  House 
and  one  board  on  the  Republican  side  of  the  House,  so  they  can  all 
see  it.  They  would  be  duplicates,  and  whatever  there  is  on  one  side 
should  be  on  the  other  side.  Instantly  everybody  can  see  how  each 
individual  Member  has  voted. 

Mr.  Howard.  That  means  you  would  have  870  units? 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  Substantially  900  units. 

Mr.  Howard.  That,  of  course,  would  be  one  of  the  elements  of 
cost,  because  each  part  is  a  separate  and  distinct  unit,  with  each 
unit  performmg  the  same  function. 

Mr.  Hicks.  Does  that  bring  it  up  high  enough? 

Mr.  South.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  Some  objections  were  made  to  the  effect  that  you 
have  no  desks.  I  will  explain  that,  because  I  want  to  go  into  every 
detail,  so  far  as  the  installation  is  concerned,  and  to  show  you  how 
it  will  be  possible  to  make  it  absolutely  practical.  It  is  not  necessary 
to  have  any  desks.  You  can  put  this  right  on  a  chair,  or  next  to  a 
chair,  or  at  any  convenient  place.  It  would,  of  course,  necessitate 
the  numbering  of  the  chairs,  but  they  are  numbered  already.  Each 
individual  Member  would  draw  a  seat  number.  Then  there  might 
come  up  the  question  that  they  would  have  to  go  to  their  seats  in 
order  to  vote,  but  I  contemplate,  in  order  to  make  it  still  more  con- 
venient, to  have  other  voting  stations  at  convenient  places  in  the  Hall. 
There  might  be  six  or  eight,  and  there  is  ample  space  in  which  to  put 
them,  l^or  mstance,  you  might  locate  some  in  the  Hall  next  to  the 
cloakroom  on  the  Democratic  side  and  Republican  side.  If  you 
wanted  to  vote  there  you  could  take  out  your  key,  unlock  it,  press  the 
button,  aiul  vote. 

Mr.  MiLLf':i{.  Would  you  provide  there  a  vothig  place  for  every 
Member  of  tiie  Housed 

Mr.  BoRRoiF.  There  would  be  so  many  stations  provided  on  the 
Republican  side,  and  lik(!wise  so  many  on  the  Democratic  side. 

Mr.  Miller.  That,  of  course,  would  increase  the  cost  and  necessi- 
tate; a  j)lace  for  each  Member  at  these  substations? 

Mr.  lioBHOFF.  Ye-;,  sir:  but  it  would  maki*  it  more  coincnient.  It 
is  like  electric  ligiits.  Wiien  electric  lights  canu*  into  use  they  were 
mor(!  expensive  than  gaslights,  and  gaslights  were  more  ex])ensive 
than  eandleJight,  but  we  would  not  want  to  go  back  to  candleligiit. 
This,  of  co!irse,  is  a  matter  of  time  siving  and  convenience,  and  it 
must  actually  be  charged  uj)  to  (;ost  plus  tiu'  actual  cost,  of  installa- 
tion. Th(!  cost,  of  course,  increases  as  you  increase  the  accommoda- 
tions in  this  respect. 

The  Chairman.  If  you  provide  two  voting  places,  one  on  the  desks 
and  one  for  use  at  other  places  in  the  Hall,  would  the  cost  be  twice  as 
much  ? 


12  FXECTKICAL    AND    MECHANICAL    SYSTEM    OF    VOTING. 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  No,  sir.  I  %ure  it  this  way:  If  that  system  goes  in 
horo,  it  has  got  to  be  the  very  best  in  America,  and  the  very  best  that 
can  be  mad>.  That  is  my  ui->a,  and  I  know  if  I  got  this  dsvice  in 
here,  mv  record  is  made.  "  I  would  not  have  it  anything  else  but  the 
very  best,  and  1  have  figured  it  out  so  as  to  make  the  thing  absolutely 
complete  in  every  detail. 

Mr.  Hicks.  Vou  have  sonu^  method,  1  suppose,  by  which  the 
Clerk  can  vote  a  Member's  nanu>? 

Mr.  BoBHOFF.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Hicks.  \\^iy  not?  vSupposc  Mr.  Miller,  Mr.  Howard;  and  I 
should  come  up  here  and  forget  our  keys,  and  a  roll  call  should  take 
place,  could  we  not  get  the  Clerk  and  ask  him  to  vote  for  us  ? 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  No,  sir;  the  Clerk  would  give  you  a  duplicate  key. 

Mr.  Hicks.  A  master  key  ? 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  No,  sir;  "a  (hiph(;ate  key.  With  a  master  key, 
voting  could  be  done  from  any  station:  but  there  would  be  no  chance 
for  any  unautliorizcd  voting" with  a  duplicate  key.  If  you  have  a 
duplicate  k(>y,  that  will  olimmate  every  possible  difficulty. 

Mr.  Hicks.  What  arrangement  do  you  provide  for  keeping  the 
duplicate  keys  ? 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  The  Clerk  has  the  duplicate  keys. 

Mr.  Howard.  He  keeps  the  duplicate  kej^s  under  lock  and  key  ? 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  Yes,  sir. 

'Sir.  Howard.  He  keeps  that  key  and  would  give  it  to  you  when 
necessary  ? 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Millp:r.  Do  you  care  to  tell  us  what  arrangements  were  made 
for  the  Wisconsin  Legislature  ?     Do  they  have  subvoting  stations  ? 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  No,  sir;  they  have  d;sks  there,  and  really  they  do 
not  give  them  any  time  on  a' call  of  the  roll  unless  it  is  a  call  of  the 
liouse.  Then  they  send  for  them.  Otherwise  they  vote  if  they  are 
there  and  they  have  not  made  any  provision  for  voting  away  from 
the  desks. 

Mr.  Miller.  Do  you  have  this  arrangement  (the  recording  panel) 
in  the  hall  there  ? 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  Yes,  sir;  this  aiTangement  has  been  placed  in  the 
center  of  the  gallery,  at  a  place  where  it  was  very  convenient  for  us, 
and  it  reduced  the  cost  greatly. 

Mr.  Miller.  Do  you  care  to  teU  what  was  the  cost  of  the  installa- 
tion in  the  Wisconsin  Legislature? 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  Yes,  sir.  I  will  show  you  a  little  drawing  I  have 
here. 

The  Chairman.  Descri))e  that  so  the  reporter  can  make  it  clear  in 
the  hearings. 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  A  board  has  been  placed  in  the  center  of  the  gallery. 
The  ornamental  railing  has  been  cut  out,  and  an  ornamental  bronze 
frame  has  been  substituted.  You  can  see  a  part  of  the  ornamental 
work  here  [indicating].  We  have  nothing  to  do  with  any  of  the 
changes  whatsoever.  TTie  changes  in  the  gallery,  the  changes  in  the 
structure,  the  ornamental  frame,  the  iron  frame,  and  aU  of  the  neces- 
sary reconstruction  work  in  the  building  were  done  by  the  Wisconsin 
commission  tliat  has  charge  of  the  construction  of  the  capitol 
building.  We  put  in  our  units  in  the  right  place  for  them,  and  we 
get  from  them  $11,600  for  100  units,  $106  per  unit.     Now,  we  knew 


ELECTRICAL   AND    MECHANICAL   SYSTEM    OF    VOTING.  13 

when  we  started  on  that  job  that  we  would  not  make  an}^  money, 
and  the  reason  for  domg  that  was  simply  to  prove  conclusively  the 
practicability  of  the  device,  as  would  be  done  in  any  other  business 
proposition,  Tliat  is  the  only  reason  why  we  are  installing  100  units 
there  for  SI  1 ,600.  Any  other  State  legislature  of  that  size  or  number 
would  have  to  pay  not  less  than  S25,000.  By  adding  up  the  cost  of 
the  ornamental  work,  the  reconstruction  work,  and  evervthing  else, 
the  cost  there  will  amount  to  S16,000  or  S17,0q0,  or  about  S170  per 
unit.  That  will  be  about  the  actual  cost  of  installing  the  system 
with  100  names.  Here  1  contemplate  that  all  the  requirements, 
and  to  do  all  the  reconstruction  work  necessar}",  and  to  do  all  the 
necessary  ornamental  work  to  beautify  and  make  it  in  harmony  with 
the  Chamber  would  be  included  in  this  SI 25,000. 

Mr.  Miller.  There  would  have  to  be  some  people  here  to  take  care 
of  it.  Would  we  have  to  employ  some  electricians  trained  in  the 
workings  of  this  system  ? 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  No,  sir;  there  are  a  great  number  of  electricians 
employed  here.  The  device  in  itself  is  very  durable,  and  it  will  re- 
quire very  little  attention.  Just  to  give  you  an  idea  of  how  little 
attention  it  will  require  I  will  say  that  this  machine  you  see  before 
you  has  made  approximately  90,000  roU  calls.  Now,  how  much  time 
clo  you  suppose  it  would  require  for  Congress  to  take  90,000  roll  calls  ? 
There  would  not  be  that  many  in  100  years,  at  least,  or  probably  in 
200  years.  Take,  for  instance,  the  Sixty-second  Congress,  which  was 
the  longest  Congress  so  far  as  roU  calls  are  concerned,  and  you  will 
see  that  that  machine  can  do  200  years'  work.  I  know  positively 
that  it  never  went  \\Tong.  There  is  no  question  but  that  the  main- 
tenance part  of  it  would  be  a  very  small  matter  annually. 

The  Chairman.  Would  it  not  be  necessary  to  have  a  good  practical 
electrician  to  look  after  that  device  ? 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  SouTfi.  There  are  a  half  a  dozen  men  in  the  building  who  could 
do  it. 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  They  have  a  good  many  men  here,  and  I  know  they 
are  very  caj)able.     They  are  already  here. 

The  Chair.man.  Do  you  think  that  Mr.  Woods's  force  is  sufliciontly 
well  posted  in  this  kind  of  work  to  make  any  repairs  that  would  bo 
necessary  to  be  made  on  this  device^ 

Mr.  BoHROFF.  You  could  pick  any  man  you  want  for  that.  You 
could  take  u  man  without  any  electri<;al  training,  and  Ic^t  me  have  him 
just  one  we(^k  and  1  will  inak(^  an  expert  of  tiiat  man  on  that  partic- 
ular dcviciv 

Mr.  llASTiN'(is.  Have  you  thought  about  the  cost  of  changing  tho 
names  when  the,  memb(^rship  of  tlie  Houses  changes^ 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  Yes,  sir;  and  L  will  show  you  how  that  is  done. 
Suppose,  for  instance,  Mr.  P'itzgerald  is  defeated;  you  simply  take 
this  out  [indiciitingl,  vva^o  this  luiine  [indicating],  and  print  tho  other 
name  on  it.  Y«>u  would  put  the  sauu^  |)lates  back  in  its  proper  pt  si- 
tiori. 

Mr.  Sornr.   And  give  tiie  nr.w  man  his  k(\v. 

Mr.  BonijoKF.   Yes,  sir;  that  is  all  th<M-(^  is  to  it. 

Mr.  IlowAKi).  The  lu^w  man  would  ((Mtie  in  and  got  that  key? 

Mr.  Ijohkokf.   Yes,  sir. 


14  El.T'.CTRICAL    AND    MECHANICAL    SYSTEM    OF    VOTING. 

Tho  CiiAiKMAX.  Is  it  vour  id  >a  to  have  tho  list  of  names  appear  in 
alphabetical  oi-aor,  or  should  they  appear  in  the  order  of  the  States? 

^Ir.  BoiiHOFF.  I  would  sugg A^t  that  it  would  be  best  to  have  them 
app  nir  bv  States.  -,      n        a-  j.  ■  . 

The  Chairman.  Then,  when  the  Member  from  the  hrst  district 
gv^s  out,  all  that  is  necessary  is  to  tak'^,  off  the  name  "James  T. 
Lhn-d"  and  put  in  the  name  of  his  successor. 

Ml-.  BoBKOFF.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  why  I  suggest  it  be  arranged  by 

Stat'S.  .  •  1     i 

The  Chairman.  Is   there    any  further  explanation   you   wish   to 

make  about  it  ? 

Mr.  Howard.  Is  this  apparatus  connected  up  now  ? 

Mr.  BoBuoFF.  I  do  not  know  whether  it  is  or  not.  I  doubt  it;  I 
did  not  ha  \  e  time  enough  to  test  it  out. 

Tlie  Chairman,  is  there  any  other  further  explanation  you  desire 
to  make  ? 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  One  thing  I  want  to  say  is  this:  I  want  to  go  into 
the  hearing  of  last  vear  of  Mr.  Walsh  for  the  reason  that  I  want  to 
point  out  to  you  a  clifferencc  in  the  conditiors  cxistirg  at  that  time 
and  now.  They  did  not  prov'ide  for  anything  s])ecihc  or  definite, 
a^td  the  er.tire  proposition  at  that  time  was  nothing  but  a  guess. 
When  the  chairman  asked  Mr.  Walsh,  "Your  resolution  docs  not 
speci.ically  pro  side  for  anything  at  all?"  Mr.  Walsh  answered, 
".o.  sir."  i^urther,  when  Mr.  Ten  Eyck  stated  that  Mr.  Walsh 
did  not  provide  for  making  changes  in  votes,  Mr.  Walsh  replied  that 
''This  could  be  done  and  that  it  will  hare  to  be  done  just  as  it  is  now, 
and  that  there  is  not  any  electrical  way  by  which  it  could  be  done, 
and  that  the  mists: k^s  would  ha.e  to  be'corrected  when  it  is  taken  off 
the  record."  Txien  Mi\  Ten  Eyck  pointed  out  at  that  time  that  Mr. 
Walsh  did  not  pros  ide  in  any  way  whereby  mistakes  could  be  detected 
and  corrected  by  the  Member;  that  under  his  outline  each  Member 
would  ha.e  four  buttons  to  manipulate  and  many  mistakes  would 
be  sure  to  hap,>(>n.  All  this  I  simply  point  out  to  pro v'C  my  conten- 
tion that  Mr.  VValsh's  statement  as  to  the  cost  of  nistalling  an  elec- 
trical voting  system  could  not  be  taken  authoritatively. 

I  am  proving  to  you  conclusively  that  my  system  of  voting  is 
absolutely  complete  in  every  d'tail.  It  provid' s  not  only  tho  means 
of  taking  a  roU  call  instantaneously  but  it  also  adds  and  records  the 
vote  of  every  member  and  shows  just  how  he  voted  on  a  qu«^stion; 
it  also  provides  the  means  whereby  a  Member  can  correct  his  vote 
if  he  happens  to  change  his  mind,  or  if  he  makes  a  rristakc.  This  is 
done  automatically;  it  is  dou'^  just  as  soon  as  the  Member  touches 
ih.-'  button  which  is  provide  d  for  that  purposn.  I  want  to  emphasize 
this  particular  point,  because  Mr.  Walsh  stated  before  your  committee 
that  this  cou!d  not  be  done. 

Further,  when  a  Meiiber  is  voting  he  can  see  from  his  voting  place 
how  he  voted,  and  the  same  vote  wiU  duplicate  itself  on  a  largo 
board  adjacent  to  his  name,  where  everyone  else  can  see.  In  short, 
this  system  is  provided  with  all  the  means  that  practical  legislation 
can  demand. 

Taking  the  statement  of  Mr.  Underwood  that  this  system  of  voting 
wou'd  save  at  least  $50,000  a  year  in  light,  heat,  telephone  and  tele- 
graph service,  I  might  add  th;it  there  are  other  important  savings 
which  would  be  made  by  the  means  of  this  system,  namely,  the  salary 


ELECTRICAL   AND    MECHANICAL   SYSTEM    OF    VOTING.  15 

ol  the  ironthly  employees,  and  printing  the  roll  calls,  etc.,  which 
would  he  greatly  reduced.  In  other  words,  this  system  would  pay 
for  itself  in  one  year.  Also  the  convenience  to  the  Members  must  he 
considered.  Taking  the  Sixty-second  Congress  as  a  demonstration, 
where  55  legislative  days  were  spent  in  calling  the  roll,  with  this 
system  in  existence  50  out  of  the  55  could  have  been  saved,  or  it 
woukl  have  been  possible  for  you  to  sdjourn  two  months  sooner. 
Therefore,  as  I  sav,  you  can  not  take  the  conditions  existing  at  the 
tin:e  of  Mr.  Walsh's  presentation  of  this  matt'n-  fs  a  brsis  for  this. 
In  the  first  place,  Mr.  Walsh,  wh^i  he  introduced  that  resolution, 
positively  stated  that  he  did  not  have  anything  definite,  and  he  stated 
on  page  12  of  this  hearing,  "If  it  is  not  a  good  thing  you  are  going  to 
lose  S20,000."  That  is  what  Mr.  Walsh  said.  We  might  know  the 
exact  cost  or  approximately  the  exact  cost  of  our  system  with  this 
exception:  We  know  that  since  last  year  material  has  increasnd  in 
cost  from  100  to  500  per  cent.  In  this  case,  however,  we  did  not 
multiply  this  price  by  four  or  five  hundred  per  cent,  but  we  wiU  have 
a  yory  small  margin  of  profit  on  that  device. 

Mr.  MiLLETf.  Of  course,  the  question  of  price  will  come  up  in  the 
discussion  of  this  matter.  Suppose  you  reduce  the  number  of  units 
to  one  having  only  one  panel  and  no  substations  for  voting.  Would 
that  considerably  change  the  ])rice  named  in  the  Howard  resolution? 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  It  would,  and  that  is  the  reason  I  think  the  best  way 
to  do  it  is  to  provide  for  all  the  accommodations  necessary,  and  leave 
it  to  a  commission. 

Mr.  Miller.  I  want  to  know  how  much  it  would  reduce  the  price. 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  Yes,  sir;  it  would  reduce  it. 

Mr.  Miller.  But  you  can  not  say  off'-hand  how  much? 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  No,  sir;  but  it  would  reduce  it  very  considerably. 
Therefore.  I  think  the  best  way  to  do  would  l)e  to  leave  it  to  a  com- 
mission to  decide.  If  the  commission  has  had  ample  experience  along 
legislative  lines,  they  can  determine  wliat  is  best,  so  far  as  actual 
installation  i^  concerned.  I  personally  would  submit  three  difTerenb 
plans,  and  let  them  make  their  own  choice  about  it. 

Ml'.  Hicks.  How  nmch  space  would  you  want  for  the  450  units? 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  Ninety  scjuare  feet  would  be  ample  room. 

The  Chairman.  Can  you  say  what  material  would  go  in  to  the 
installation  ? 

Mr.  BoPROFF.  Taking,  the  Wisconsin  Legislature  installation  as  a 
basis,  according  to  tlie  way  1  figured  it  out,  in  order  to  make  it  right, 
there  would  be  in  different  si/.ed  wires  approximatelv  70  miles  or 
about  309, GOO  feet. 

'I'he  Cmaik.nlw.   AVliat  kind  of  wire? 

Mr.  BoiutoFK.   Different  kinds  of  wire. 

Tne  CiiAUOLW.  How  much  of  it  would  be  copper  wire? 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  All  of  it  would  he  coj)per  wire. 

Mr.  vSouTH.  And  it  would  be  insulated  like  this  [indicating]. 

The  (.'iiAiRMAN.  All  of  it  would  b(^  insulated  ? 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  Yes,  sir;  and  in  conduits.  All  of  that  wire  would 
be  in  concbiits.     Not  a  single  wire  could  be  seen. 

The  CiiAiR.MAN.  What  cliarige  has  llu're  been  in  IIk^  price  of  cojijxu" 
recently  { 

Mr.  iioBROFF.   I  can  not  say  wlmt   the  change  has  beiiu  nicently 

The  CHAHt.^fA.\.   Well,  within  the  last  two  years? 


16  ELECTRICAL    .\ND    MECHANICAL    SYSTEM    OF    VOTING. 

Mr.  BoBKOFF.  I  should  say  that  the  price  has  doubled,  at  least,  if 
not  more  than  doubled. 

The  Chairman.  Have  there  been  any  objections  made  to  this 
device^     What  objections  have  been  urged  to  itj 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  I  have  not  heard  of  any  objections  to  it. 

Mr.  ;Miller.  Was  there  any  opposition  to  the  adoption  of  the 
device  in  the  Wisconsin  Legislature? 

:Mr.  BoBROFF.  The  bill  passed  by  a  vote  of  51  to  23,  and  each  one  of 
the  23  voted  against  it  simply  l)ecause  they  had  pledged  themselves 
not  to  make  any  new  appropriations  that  year,  and  this  was  the  only 
new  appropriation  passed  by  the  Wisconsin  Legislature  at  that  time. 
That  is  the  only  reason  they  gave  for  voting  against  it  that  I  know  of. 

The  Chairman.  Wliat  1  was  trying  to  get  at  was  to  know  the 
answer  to  the  objections  that  may  have  been  urged  against  the  device. 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  I  have  not  heard  of  any  objection.  I  think  one 
member  told  me  that  the  voting  was  too  fast  now.  I  presume  that 
objection  was  that  if  they  voted  any  faster  they  would  flood  the 
country  with  legislation.  Now,  I  am  glad  that  I  have  the  opportunity 
to  answer  that  question,  and  the  answer  is  that  as  long  as  the  legisla- 
tive bodies  are  in  session,  they  will  have  that  long  to  pass  legislation, 
and  the  quicker  they  get  through  and  adjourn,  the  less  chance  there 
will  be  for  passing  legislation  that  may  not  be  desirable.  It  will  enable 
them  to  get  through  quicker  by  this  system. 

Mr.  Miller.  Is  it  a  corporation  that  owns  the  patent? 

Ml-.  BoBROFF.  It  is  a  corporation  at  the  present  time.  Gentle- 
men, I  am  taking  the  facts  from  this  report,  and  I  find  it  stated  that  it 
consumes  approximately  45  minutes  to  call  the  roll.  Now,  this  de- 
vice will  enable  you  to  take  the  roll  call  at  any  speed  you  may  desire. 
It  enables  you  to  take  the  roll  caU  at  any  speed  that  you  may  deter- 
mine is  the  proper  speed. 

The  Chairman.  Suppose  you  wanted  to  take  it  in  two  minutes? 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  You  could  take  it  in  34  seconds. 

The  Chairman.  Then,  how  long  would  you  wait  before  taking  the 
second  roll  call? 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  Thirty-four  seconds  after  the  first  vote.  You  can 
make  a  permanent  record  there,  and  can  see  how  the  vote  has  been 
recorded,  and  then  take  the  second  vote. 

The  Chairman.  Do  you  think  it  would  be  possible  to  take  25  votes 
in  75  minutes,  one  right  after  the  other,  and  announce  each  vote  ? 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  Yes,  sir;  just  as  quick  as  they  can  talk;  if  they  can 
talk  as  fast  as  I  can,  they  could. 

Mr.  :Miller.  This  takes  a  copy  of  the  roll  call,  and  you  make  from 
it  afterwards  the  copy  for  the  records? 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Miller.  It  registers  at  the  Speaker's  desk  the  result  of  the 
vote? 

Mr.  BoBROP^F.  Yfs,  sir;  it  registers  the  result  of  the  vote  at  the 
Speaker's  desk.  Then  you  cm  make  a  chr.nge  in  your  vote.  Sup- 
pose, for  instance,  you  vote  aye  on  a  question,  and  then  change  your 
mind  j  nd  w-  nt  to  vote  no.  At  the  present  time  you  have  to  wait 
until  the  roll  call  is  taken  before  changing  3^0 ur  vote,  and  then  ask 
permission  to  ch*  n^:e  your  vote.  By  means  of  this  system,  however, 
you  are  indeper.d  nt  of  that.  If  you  make  a  mistake,  you  can  change 
it  from  one  column  to  the  other.     It  does  not  make  any  record  what- 


ELECTRICAL    AND    MECHAXICAL    SYSTEM    OF    VOTIXG.  17 

soever  until  the  vote  is  finally  closed,  ar.d  then  it  makes  the  perma- 
nent record  showing  how  each  individual  ^Memhc  r  voted.  At  the 
present  time,  if  you  come  in  ht  If  a  minute  late,  it  is  necessary  for 
you  to  wait  mitil  the  next  roll  c;  U,  or  if  you  come  in  too  soonj  you 
have  to  wait  until  your  name  is  reached;  but  by  means  of  this  system 
it  is  possible  for  you  or  any  individual  Member  to  come  m  at  any 
time  and  press  the  button  and  vote.  Then,  when  you  have  voted 
you  can  go  away. 

The  Chairman.  Suppose  I  come  in  and  want  to  know,  for  instance, 
how  Mr.  Mann  has  voted  i 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  You  can  look  at  the  board  and  see  how  he  voted. 

Mr.  Hicks.  How  do  you  change  the  number  of  the  bill  ? 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  The  nmnber  of  the  bill  or  resolution  is  permanent, 
})Ut  these  f'gures  [mdicatingl  are  slidable.  We  have  a  dupHcate  set 
of  letters  and  numbers. 

Mr.  Hicks.  You  have  a  combination  of  numbers  i 

Mr.  BoBEOFF.  Yes,  sir.  This  is  simply  a  demonstration  of  it. 
Tlie  entire  proposition  is  made  up  of  such  a  combination  that  5'ou 
can  Ciuickh'  change  the  numbers. 

(Thereupon,  the  committee  proceeded  to  the  consideration  of  other 
business,  after  which  it  adjourned.) 


Committee  on  xVccounts, 

HocsE  of  Representatives, 

TTimsday,  May  25,  1916. 
The  committee  this  day  met,  Hon.  James  T.  Lloyd  (chairman)  pre- 
siding. 

Mr.  LLe)YD.  The  conmiittee  will  com.e  to  order.  Mr.  Garner,  will 
you  please  state  to  the  committees  your  views  with  reference  to  a 
voting  device  for  the  House  of  Representatives? 

STATEMENT  OF  HON.  JOHN  N.  GARNER,  A  REPRESENTATIVE 
IN  CONGRESS  FROM  THE  STATE  OF  TEXAS. 

Mr.  Garner.  Mr.  Chairman,  at  your  suggestion  1  came  by  this 
morning  to  give  the  committee  my  views  as  to  the  wisdom  of  adopting 
this  syst(»m 

The  Chairman  (interposing).  Or  a  system? 

Mr.  Garner.  Yes;  a  system  similar  to  this;  something  that  will 
faciJitato  the  calling  of  the  roll.  I  beliciVi!  this  is  the  system  whicli 
has  been  on  exhibition  in  the  ^^'ays  and  Means  Committee  room  for 
some  tim<\  1  have  gorus  there  onco  or  twice  and  liad  this  gent,l<'man, 
I  think,  explain  its  workings  to  nu\  I  do  not  know  whether  this  is 
the  best  systi^m  or  not,  but  I  do  want  to  speak  just  a  word  in  behalf 
of  some  system  that  will  facililalc  getting  record  votes  in  the  House. 
Two  policies,  1  think,  should  Ix-  paramont  in  adopting  any  rules  of 
tlu^  llous<s  of  Kepr<'s<'ntatives  or  any  nu'fhod  by  wliich  to  accomplish 
thos(s  two  policies.  One  is  tlu^  facilitation  of  business  and  tlie  other 
is  giving  tnc  minority  an  opporf unity  to  be  heard  and  to  put  the 
majority  on  record  wlienever  it  is  desired.     Those*  two  pr()|)ositions, 

44.5.=} »— 10 2 


/ 


18  ELKCTRICAI.    ANO    :\rKCUA>:  ICAL    SYSTEM    OF    VOTlNCi. 

it  occurs  to  ni<\  almost  solve  the  ])robl(Mn  of  lc<yislation,  and  this 
system  helps  in  both  dir<M'tioiis.  I  would  not  advocate  this  or  any 
other  device  to  facilitate  th<>  transaction  of  business  in  the  House 
if  it  took  away  from  the  minority  any  rit:;ht  whatever  that  it  now 
has.  But  this  device  will  not  take  away,  from  the  mmority  either 
an  opportunity  to  be  heai'd  oi'  an  op])ortunity  to  secure  a  record 
vote.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  it  will  add  to  the  opportunity  of  the 
minority  to  secure  a  record  vote  on  many  things  on  which  thoj'^ 
can  not  now  secure  such  a  vote,  because  it  takes  too  much  time. 

Mr.  MiLLEH.  Does  that  mean  that  th(>  rules  might  hv  changed  so 
that  we  could  get  a  recoi'd  vote  in  the  Committee^  of  the  Whole? 

Mr.  Garner.  That  is  a  matter,  of  course,  that  will  be  worked  out 
later  on.  It  was  not  my  intention  to  discuss  that  phase  of  it,  but  if 
such  a  scheme  could  b(>  worked  out  I  would  be  mighty  glad  to  see  it 
adopted,  because  I  have  been  here  long  enougb  to  see  legislation  put 
on  bills  in  th;^  C{uumitte<>  of  the  Whole  that  the  majority  of  the  House 
was  not  in  favor  of,  but  no  rvH'ord  vote  could  be  demanded.  If  you 
could  get  a  record  vote  in  the  Committee  of  the  Whole  you  would  add 
one  more  feature  that  would  be  anything  but  detrimental  and  you 
would  accomplish  something  that  is  now  detrimental  in  the  consid- 
eration of  measures  in  the  Committee  of  the  Whole,  to  wit,  keeping  a 
quorum. 

Mr.  Park.  Did  I  understand  vou  to  sav  vou  would  take  out  the 
bells? 

Mr.  Garner.  Yis;  I  would  not  give  the  Mend)ers  an  opportunity 
to  know  when  a  roll  w^as  going  to  be  called. 

Mr.  Park.  I  am  not  in  favor  of  that. 

Mr.  Garner.  I  know  you  are  not,  but  I  am.  I  am  in  favor  ot  some 
method  which  will  keej)  Members  on  the  floor  of  the  House  of  Repre- 
sentatives, and  if  those  bells  were  taken  out  the  opportunity  to  know 
W'hen  there  was  a  roll  call  would  be  taken  away  and  the  Members 
w^ould  be  compelled  to  stay  there. 

Ml'.  Edwards.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  you  could  keep  the  bells  in, 
could  you  not  ? 

Mr.  Garner.  Oh,  yes:  but  I  do  not  want  to  discuss  that  feature 
of  it.  I  want  to  call  the  attention  of  the  committee  to  the  advantage 
of  facihtating  roll  calls  in  the  House,  both  to  the  majority  and  to  the 
minority,  and  I  do  not  want  to  discuss  the  matter  from  any  other 
standpoint.  I  have  mentioned  these  other  matters  because  some  of 
the  gentlemen  have  suggested  them.  It  may  be  said  that  such  a 
system  would  operate  against  the  rights  of  the  minority,  but  I  do  not 
think  that  is  so.  The  object  of  the  majority  is  to  facilitate  the  pas- 
sage of  bills  and  see  to  the  carrying  out  of  its  program.  The  object 
of  the  minorit}'  is  to  criticize,  if  it  deems  proper,  the  majority's  pro- 
gram, and  to  get  record  votes  on  such  measures  as  it  deems  advisable. 
It  occurs  to  me  that  this  is  advantageous  to  the  majority  in  carrying 
out  its  program  and  it  is  advantageous  to  the  minority  in  getting  a 
larger  number  of  record  votes  on  any  proposition  it  desires.  I  be- 
lieve it  is  good  both  for  the  minority  and  for  the  majority  to  adopt 
some  system  similar  to  this. 

Mr.  Miller.  You  say  it  woubl  keej)  peoj)le  on  th<^  floor  more  than 
the  present  system  does  ? 

Mr.  Garner.  I  do  not  mean  that  this  particular  system  would;  no. 


ELECTRICAL    AND    MECHANICAL    SYSTEM    OF    VOTING.  19 

Ml-.  Miller.  I  mean,  suppose  a  large  number  of  the  Members  were 
on  the  floor  would  it  not  be  difficult  to  keep  order  ?  Would  not 
pandemonium  reign  as  it  does  many  times  under  the  present  system? 

Mi\  Garner.  Probably,  but  this  would  not  necessarily  make  any 
change  with  reference  to  staying  on  the  floor  of  the  House,  because 
even  with  this  system  the  bells  would  ring  and  Members  would  be 
given  an  opportunity  to  come  to  the  House  from  th(^  Office  Building 
the  same  as  now. 

Mr.  KoNOP.  The  Members  would  be  allowed  a  certain  length  of 
time  to  get  to  the  House  ( 

Mr.  Garner.  Yes,  sir.  It  could  be  tested  in  order  to  ascertain 
how  long  it  should  take  for  the  Members  to  come  from  the  Offiee 
Building  to  answer  a  roll  call.  This  system  is  to  facilitate  the  trans- 
action of  business  on  the  floor  of  the  House,  and  would  in  no  degree, 
as  I  see  it,  take  away  from  the  minority  its  two  paramount  purposes, 
to  wit,  the  criticism  of  the  majority  and  putting  them  on  record  with 
reference  to  certain  measures. 

Mr.  KoNOP.  Do  you  tliink  it  would  be  a  violation  of  the  Constitu- 
tion to  adopt  this  plan? 

Mr.  Garner.  I  had  not  thought  about  that  phase  of  it.  but  I  do 
not  see  just  how  it  could. 

Mr.  KoNOP.  Where  the  Constitution  ])rovides  for  a  yea-and-nay 
vote 

Mr.  Garner  (interposing).  That  would  be  registered. 

Mr.  KoNOP  (continuing).  It  is  contemplated  that  the  name  of  each 
Member  shall  be  called  and  that  each  Member  shall  answer  yea  or  nay. 

Mr.  Garner.  I  can  hardly  think  that  would  be  the  construction  by 
the  Su])reme  Court.  1  imagine  the  Sui)reme  Court  would  consider 
the  result,  and  if  the  journal  showed  it  was  a  yea-and-nay  vote,  that 
there  were  so  many  \eas  and  so  many  nays,  that  the  Suprciine  Court 
would  not  go  back  of  those  vote's  to  ascertain  whethei  the  Members 
voted  by  answering  to  their  names  or  by  registering  through  a  device 
of  this  kind.  1  hardly  think  the  Supreme  Court  would  go  back  of  the 
journal  to  ascertain  just  whether  a  man's  voice  registered  his  vote  or 
whether  his  thund)  i-egistered  his  \-ote.  .1  had  not  thought  about  that 
phase  of  it. 

Mr.  KoNOP.  I  do  not  think  so  cil  her.  and  I  jnst  asked  liial  ijucstion 
to  get  your  o])inion  about  it . 

Mr.  Gaknki{.  1  think  tliat  is  ahuut  all  1  wish  to  say.  I  came  by 
this  morning  at  the  suggestion  of  Mr.  Lloytl  to  say  what  has  occurred 
to  my  mind  as  tiie  advantages  of  this  system  in  facilitating  business  on 
the  ])art  of  the  majority  an(l  giving  the  minority  efjual  o))])()rtunity  to 
be  lieard  and  n  greater  o])])ort unity  to  ])ut  the  luajonly  on  record 
more  often  on  iniporlant  measincs. 

'I'he  CnAMt.MAX.  .Mr.  Garrett  has  given  this  proposition  a  great 
deal  of  attention  and  I  am  anxious  that  he  shall  be  heard. 

STATEMENT    OF   HON.    FINIS   J,    GARRETT,    A   REPRESENTA- 
TIVE IN   CONGRESS   FROM   THE   STATE  OF  TENNESSEE. 

Mr.  Garueii  .  .Mr.  Chairman,  some  years  ago  1  presented  a  resohi- 
tion  to  provide  foi'  an  investigation  into  the  feasibijily  of  installing 
a  meclianical  device  for  voting.  That  resolution  was  referred  to  tli<« 
Committee  on  Rules.  Tlie  (oinmittee  on  Rules  appointed  a  sub- 
connnitlee    that    investigated    liie    matter    in    e(.iuiection    witli    the 


20  ELECTRICAL    AND    MECHANICAL    SYSTEM    OF    VOTING. 

meinbors  of  the  Committoo  on  Accounts.  I  think  it  reported  favor- 
ably. I  believe  it  is  very  desirable  that  a  system  of  this  sort  should 
be  adopted.  Just  what  ])articular  device  should  be  adopted  I  do  not 
know.  Any  system  thai  is  adopted  would  be  an  experiment  in  the 
beginning  and  it  would  hav(>  to  be  gradually  worked  out  to  final 
perfection. 

We  are  creatures  of  habit.  Before  the  Office  Building  was  con- 
structed the  constant  attendance  of  Members  in  the  House  was  much 
larger  than  it  has  ever  been  since.  Many  have  fallen  into  the  habit  of 
staying  in  their  offices  until  the  bells  ring  and  then  coming  across 
to  vote.  That  is  not  a  desirable  practice.  The  adoption  of  a  system 
of  electric  voting  would,  after  it  was  practiced  for  a  little  while,  shorten 
the  daily  sessions  of  the  House  and  Members  would  conform  them- 
selves to  the  practice.  They  would  do  their  departmental  work  and 
attend  to  their  correspondence 

Mr.  Park  (interposing).  Will  you  permit  a  question  right  there? 

Mr.  Garrett.  Certainly. 

Mr.  Park.  Plow  do  you  figure  it  would  shorten  the  daily  sessions 
of  the  House  ?     How  can  you  figure  that  out  ? 

Mr.  Garrett.  It  would  do  it  because  the  necessity  for  it  would 
exist.  We  all  have  so  much  departmental  work  to  do  and  we  all 
have  so  much  correspondence  to  take  care  of.  A  device  by  which 
Members  could  vote  immediately  would,  I  suppose,  cut  out  at  least 
one-third  of  the  time  that  is  used  in  the  consideration  of  measures 
on  the  floor.  It  would  be  a  revolutionary  proceeding  but  it  would 
lead  to  good  results.  The  gentleman  from  Delaware,  Mr.  Miller, 
suggested  a  matter  to  Mr.  Garner  a  few  moments  ago — that  is, 
whether  it  would,  as  I  understood  it,  cut  out  teller  votes. 

Mr.  Miller.  No.  Mr.  Garner  was  saying  that  we  might  have 
record  votes  on  a  greater  number  of  measures  and  I  asked  him 
whether  there  would  be  a  change  in  the  rules  so  that  there  could  be 
roll-call  votes  in  Committee  of  the  Whole,  whether  that  might  be 
possible. 

Mr.  Garrett.  Personally,  I  have  not  the  slightest  doubt  but  that 
would  be  and  should  be  the  ultimate  result. 

Mr.  Miller.  Do  you  think  that  it  is  always  desirable — to  be  per- 
fectly frank  about  it — to  have  200  or  300  Members  on  the  floor  when 
we  are  considering  a  bill  like  the  Oregon  California  Railroad  bill 
when  there  were  only  about  50  men  directly  interested  on  the  floor 
and  a  hundred  or  more  Members  waiting  for  a  vote  and,  of  course, 
engaging  in  conversation,  so  that  there  would  be  a  great  deal  of 
confusion  if  more  Members  were  present  ? 

Mr.  Garrett.  That  is  under  the  system  of  voting  which  we  have 
now.  I  think  under  a  mechanical  device  voting  system,  where  one 
is  expecting  a  vote  every  minute,  one  would  find  better  order  in  the 
House  and  would  find  that  Members  would  be  much  more  quiet. 

The  Chairman.  Canyino^  out  that  thought,  is  it  not  true  that  we 
had  much  better  order  under  the  old  system,  when  we  had  a  ifull  at- 
tendance, than  we  have  now  ? 

Mr.  Garrett.  That  was  true  before  the  House  Office  Building  was 
constructed  and  when  Members  were  in  almost  constant  attendance. 

Mr.  Reilly.  Was  not  that  true  because  of  the  fact  that  the  Mem- 
bers were  attending  to  some  business  at  their  desks  ? 


ELECTRICAL    AXD    MECHANICAL    SYSTEM    OF    VOTING.  21 

Mr.  Garrett.  Perhaps  that  may  be  true- 


Mr.  Reilly.  You  do  not  think  you  could  keep  order  if  435  Members 
were  in  attendance  all  the  time  ? 

Mr.  Garrett.  Well,  I  think  so,  when  they  went  there  for  business. 
Of  course  there  would  be  times  of  passion  and  riot;  that  will  always 
occur,  but  as  a  rule  I  believe  the  order  woukl  always  be  better  with  a 
full  attendance. 

Mr.  Miller.  Wlien  a  point  of  no  (juorum  is  made  the  Members  are 
assembling  for  some  time,  and  wh(>n  the  doors  are  opened  we  go  right 
on  with  the  bill  that  we  were  considering  when  the  point  of  no  quorum 
was  made,  and  you  know  how  difhcult  it  is  for  the  chairman  or  Speaker 
to  get  order  for  some  minutes.  Then  when  order  is  restored  the  Mem- 
bers who  are  not  directly  interested  in  the  matter  under  consideration 
retire  to  the  cloakrooms  or  go  out  into  the  hall,  and  only  those  who 
are  directly  interested  stay  on  the  floor,  possibl}'  25  or  50. 

Mr.  Garrett.  You  are  talking  about  the  present  system,  and  that, 
of  coui-se,  is  true,  as  we  all  know.  But  what  I  undertake  to  main- 
tain is  that  the  adoption  of  a  mechanical  voting  device  will  change 
the  entire  system. 

Mr.  Miller,  Would  it  shorten  the  talk  ? 

Mr.  Garrett.  And  we  will  soon  conform  ourselves  to  that  habit. 

Mr.  Miller.  Do  you  think  it  would  shorten  debate  and  talk  on 
measures  i 

Mr.  Garrett.  I  do  not  know.  Of  course,  a  mechanical  voting 
device  would  not  have  anything  to  do  "with  the  question  of  debate. 

Mr.  Miller.  How  would  it  change  the  system  of  debate  (  Would 
not  the  debates  be  just  as  long  between  roll  calls  and  votes  \ 

Mr.  Garrett.  I  think  it  will  result  in  the  adoj^tion  of  rules  which 
will  not  allow  of  that  laj)S(^  of  time. 

Mr.  Hastix(;s.  Do  you  not  think  that  if  we  were  to  adoi>t  this 
voting  device  and  all  of  the  Members  were  compelled  to  stay  on  the 
floor  of  the  House,  that  there  woiUd  always  be  some  of  us  who  would 
object  to  granting  unanimous  consent  for  extended  del)ate  '.  When 
there  are  only  15  or  20  Members  on  the  floor,  on  either  side  of  tlie 
aisle,  there  is  not  so  much  objection  to  unanimous  consent,  whereas 
if  we  were  all  on  the  floor  of  the  House  and  we  were  rcfpiired  to 
remain  there  you  would  always  (ind  some  one  who  would  object  to 
granting  unanimous  consent,  and  1  think  tiiat  would  have  a  tendency 
to  cut  down  the  length  of  the  tl('l)ates. 

Mr.  Garrett.  Perhaps,  but  1  thiid-:  il  |)i(»bably  would  li.ixc  a 
tench'ncy  to  bring  about  more  liberal  del)ale  and  more  thoughtful 
consideration  and  attention.  I  think  it  would  cause  Members  to 
give  more  attention  to  (h'bate  as  it  goes  on.  1  d(»  not  think  it  would 
necessarily  alfect  the  (juestion  of  (h'bate  or  the  time  of  (h'bate,  but 
I  do  think,  measuring  it  i)y  houi"s  and  taking  the  session  as  a  whole, 
that  the  same  business  could  be  (h)ne  with  probably  more  iibiMid  (h'bate 
in  two-thii-ds  the  number  of  hours  if  some  sort  of  practicid  niccharncal 
voting  device  were  adopted. 

Mr.  KoNOP.  On  the  (luestion  of  or(h'i-.  if  uc  were  to  xolc  on  this 
machine  do  you  not  think  that  every  .Member,  knowing  he  was  to 
mak<'  a  iccord  vote,  would  probably  pay  more  attention  to  what  is 
going  on  in  the  House  '. 

Mr.  (lARJtKT'r.    \'ery  (h'cidedly  -.(». 

Mr,  KoN'OP.  And  I  think  that  would  re-iilt  in  haxiiig  better  order. 


22  ELECTRICAL    AND    MECHANICAL    SYSTEM    OF    VOTING. 


' 


Mr.  Gahhett.  Decidedly  so.  1  do  not  think  there  is  any  question 
about  the  ability  of  somebody  to  get  up  a  mechanical  device  tliat  will 
accomplish  that  end.  Of  course,  if  such  device  is  adopted  the  rules 
will  have  to  be  so  written  as  to  conform  to  its  use. 

Mr.  Edison,  I  think,  in  1867 — as  far  back  as  that — invented  some 
sort  of  el(M"tric  voting  (knace  which,  by  the  way,  I  think,  is  in  use — 
altliough  possibly  not  his  invention— in  the  French  Parliament, 
I  am  not  sure,  but  T  think  tliere  is  a  voting  device  used  in  the  House  in 
New  York  Stat(^ 

Mr.  Koxc^p.  Such  a  device  is  being  used  in  Wisconsin. 

Mr.  BoBROFF.  They  have  no  device  in  New  York  now  but  they 
have  such  a  device  under  consideration  at  the  present  time,  because 
I  have  taken  up  the  matter  with  a  few  Members  there. 

Mr.  Garrett.  I  had  the  impression  that  possibly  New  York  had 
adopted  it  some  years  ago,  but  I  suppose  I  am  mistaken. 

Mr.  Miller.  I  have  observed  that  you,  as  chairman  of  the  Com- 
mittee of  the  Whole,  have  ar  hard  time  to  get  order  even  when  there 
are  a  few  members  present.  You  have  had  considerable  experience 
as  chairman  of  the  Committee  of  the  W^hole,  and  I  would  like  to  ask 
you  whether  you  think  you  would  be  helped  by  having  300  or  400 
Members  on  the  floor  and  whether  you  would  not  have  greater  diffi- 
culty in  keeping  order  ? 

Mr.  Garrett.  I  do  not  think  numbers  would  hurt  any.  The  more 
attendance,  as  a  rule,  the  better  the  order. 

Mr.  Miller.  I  know;  but  would  we  be  the  gainer  by  it  ? 

Mr.  Garrett.  You  mean  in  the  matter  of  keeping  order? 

Mr.  Miller.  Yes.  If  a  greater  number  of  Members  were  compelled 
to  stay  on  the  floor  under  this  proposed  system,  can  you  not  imagine 
the  great  amount  of  talk  that  would  be  going  on  all  the  time  among 
the  Members  if 

Mr.  Garrett.  Yes;  I  can  imagine  that,  and  it  does  not  take  a 
very  vivid  imagination  to  imagine  wliat  might  go  on.  But  my 
thought  about  it,  Mr.  Miller,  is  that  if  the  Members  knew  they  were 
going  to  have  to  vote  say  within  five  minutes  or  within  10  mintues 
on  even  the  question  of  closing  debate,  or  on  any  one  of  the  numerous 
questions  that  arise,  that  there  realh'  would  result  better  order.  Of 
course,  that  is  a  guess. 

Mr.  Miller.  I  am  asking  for  your  opinion  because  you  have  had 
so  much  experience  as  chairman  of  the  Committee  of  the  Whole. 

Mr.  Garrett.  As  I  stated  in  the  beginning,  we  are  creatures  of 
habit,  and  we  have  habituated  ourselves  to  the  practices  under  the 
present  system  of  voting;  when  we  have  a  new  system  we  will  habitu- 
ate ourselves  to  that  practice  also.  Is  seems  to  me  that  it  is  very 
desirable,  and  if  I  may  venture  this  further  statement,  I  think  that 
the  adoption  of  this  system  would  lead  in  the  end,  and  very  quickly^ 
to  the  abolishment  of  teller  votes  in  Committee  of  the  Whole  and 
that  there  would  be  record  votes  in  the  Committee  of  the  Whole. 
I  think  that  is  very  desirable.  The  Senate  of  the  United  States  does 
not  have  any  teller  votes.     Whcniever  they  vote  they  go  on  record. 

Mr.  Reilly.  What  progress  would  you  make  if  you  had  to  stop 
every  little  while  and  take  a  10-mhiute  record  vote? 

Mr.  Garrett.  You  need  not  take  a  10-niinute  record  vote  under 
a  mechanical  voting  device  system;  you  can  get  it  in  two  minutes  or 
less — at  least  I  understand  from  electricians  that  such  is  possible. 


ELECTRICAL    AND    MECHANICAL    SYSTEM    OF    VOTING.  23 

Mr.  Reilly.  If  you  arc  goin":  ti)  allow  a  coitain  length  of  time  for  a 
man  to  come  over  to  the  House  to  answer  a  roll  eall  umler  this  system 
it  seems  to  me  you  ought  to  give  him  the  same  right  in  Committee  of 
the  Wliole. 

Mr.  Garrett.  I  want  to  state  to  you  that  if  a  satisfactory  electrical 
voting  system  shoukl  he  adopted  and  I  should  have  anything  to  do 
w^ith  the  drafting  of  a  rule  to  conft)rm  to  that  system  I  would  not 
favor  giving  ten  minutes  to  Memhei-s  to  get  there.  The  main  thing 
which  I  think  can  be  accomplished  by  the  adoption  of  an  electric 
voting  system  is  the  savmg  of  time.  If  you  are  going  to  give  Mem- 
bers time  to  get  there  I  do  not  know  but  that  the  present  pei-sonal 
voice  system  might  just  as  well  remain  as  any  other. 

Mr.  Reilly.  You  would  always  -^ave  from  20  to  '.io  minutes. 

Mr.  Garrett.  But  I  do  not  think  that  is  so  very  im])ortant. 

Mr.  Lenroot.  Even  if  you  gave  them  10  minutes  in  the  House 
there  would  be  no  occasion  for  giving  them  any  time  in  the  Committee 
of  the  ^^^lole  except  the  necessary  time  to  vote. 

Mr.  Garrett.  That  is  all,  of  course. 

Mr.  Reilly.  But  you  would  make  a  record  vot(>.  and  that  would 
take  time  '( 

Mr.  Garrett.  AVhen  a  point  of  no  quorum  is  made,  of  coui"se, 
there  is  no  way.  and  ought  not  to  be  any  way,  of  getting  around  the 
constitutional  provision.  You  must  wait,  and  ought  to  wait,  until 
a  quorum  is  found;  but  I  think  that  one  of  the  rules  that  should  bci 
adopted  in  comiection  with  an  electrical  voting  d(»vice  woidd  be  one 
to  provide  that  the  fii'st  vote  should  be  shown  and  should  appear  in 
the  Record,  showing  who  was  there  on  that  first  vote  whvu  tlie  point 
of  no  C|Uorum  was  made. 

The  Chairman.  Showing  who  was  present  ( 

Mr.  Garrett.  Yes,  sir;  and  who  was  not  present  at  the  tinu>. 
That  is  a  very  rigid  proposition,  of  course,  but  1  think  it  is  a  ride 
that  should  be  made. 

The  Chairm.v.v.  Is  it  not  your  opinion  that  one  of  liie  giviatest 
evils  to-day  is  that  we  are  not  a  deiilierative  body,  and  thai  esJ)(^(•ially 
when  we  are  in  Committee  of  the  Whole  we  vote  as  sonu'body  elsct 
votes?  We  rush  in  from  our  olHces,  and  when  I  go  in  on  tiu'  lloor 
I  look  over  to  see  how  Mr.  Kitchin  is  going  to  vote  or  somebody  else 
i.s  going  to  vote,  and  Mr.  Lenroot  will  look  to  ascertain  how  Mr. 
Stafford  is  going  to  vote,  Mr.  Mann,  or  somebody  els<'.  W<>  simply 
vote  in  accordanc<i  with  what  seems  to  be  llie  party  ahgnnuMit. 
That  is  a  misfortune.  Congress  ought  to  be  a  deiil»erative  body  and 
we  ought  to  know  why  w<'  vote  on  every  matter.  T1um«^  is  this  mis- 
fortun<'  at  the  pres<'nt  time,  tluil  you  are  not  vol  ingyour<-oMvielion.s; 
you  are  not  voting  Ix-eause  of  any  kn(»wledge  of  the  matt<'r  tliat  is 
before  tlie  House. 

Mr.  (iARKETT.  That  is  in  a  luea^^ure  true  and,  if  I  may  saN  it,  it  is 
almost  unavoi(hd)l(^  under  present  ])ractices.  I  do  not  ><•(•  how  you 
can  change  that  unch-r  oin-  j)resent  system. 

Mr.  LKNitooT.  'I'liat  eoiKlition  woidd  be  eluinged  to  a  very  hirge 
e.xtent  if  the  Members  were  |)re>ent  and  heard  the  discussion. 

Mr.  Gahkett.  Precisely,  and  my  contention  is  that  the  n(loj)lion 
of  a  mechanical  voting  deviic  will  cause  Members  to  be  present  if  the 
rul(>s  an>  written  in  the  riglil  way  to  work  with  su<-li  device.  It  was 
upon  that  theorv  tinit   I  inl  roflii.crj  the  resohition  s.mic  xcars  ago.      I 


24  ELECTRICAL    AND    MECHANICAL    SYSTEM    OF    VOTING. 

(lid  not  follow  it  up  closely.  Mr.  Wjilsh,  of  New  Jersey,  was  very 
niiioh  interested  in  it,  and  as  he  had  more  time  to  devote  to  it  than  I 
had  I  turned  the  matter  over  to  him,  so  far  as  the  resolution  was 
concerned,  but  I  have  never  lost  interest  in  it.  So  far  as  the  con- 
stitutional question  is  concerned  I  do  not  think  there  is  the  slightest 
trouble  about  that.  I  really  believe  that  this  committee  would  render 
a  great  public  service  by  the  adoption  and  development  of  some 
electrical  voting  device. 

The  Chairman.  We  are  very  much  obliged  to  you,  Mr.  Garrett. 
Mr.  Lenroot,  we  will  be  very  glad  to  hear  from  you  about  this  device, 
as  I  believe  you  have  given  it  some  consideration. 

STATEMENT  OF  HON.  lEVINE  L.  LENKOOT,  A  REPRESENTA- 
TIVE IN  CONGRESS  FROM  THE  STATE  OF  WISCONSIN. 

Mr.  Lenroot.  Mr.  Chairman  and  gentlemen  of  the  committee,  I 
do  not  think  I  have  anything  to  say  other  than  to  indorse  everything 
that  Mj".  Garrett  has  said.  I  think  from  every  possible  standpoint, 
assuming  that  we  have  a  successful  device,  it  ought  to  be  adopted. 
Emphasizing  w^hat  Mr.  Garrett  has  said,  I  believe  it  will  tend  to  keep 
Members  on  the  floor,  hear  the  discussions,  and  vote  intelligently. 
In  addition  to  that  it  is  going  to  be  a  great  saving  in  time  to  Members, 
assuming  that  we  give  them  time  to  get  over,  when  w^e  are  in  the  House, 
from  their  offices.  IS  ow,  it  consumes  at  least  a  half  hour  for  a  Member 
to  wait  for  his  opportunity  to  vote,  and  there  is  nothing  done  during 
those  35  minutes  except  that  particular  roll  call.  It  would  tend  to 
keep  Members  on  the  floor,  and  if  a  record  vote  were  provided  in 
Committee  of  the  Whole  it  would  keep  Members  there,  and  instead 
of  being  the  body  which  w^e  are  so  largely  now,  as  you  have  said,  Mr. 
Chairman,  we  w^ould  become  more  of  a  deliberative  body  and  the 
Members  w  ould  be  on  the  floor  in  Committee  of  the  Whole.  Instead 
of  flocking  in  to  find  out  how  the  leader  on  their  side  votes  Members 
would  hear  the  discussions  and  vote  intelligently  upon  the  merits  of 
a  measure  to  a  much  greater  degree  than  they  do  to-day. 

With  reference  to  this  particular  device,  I  never  met  the  gentleman 
until  the  other  day,  when  I  went  into  the  committee  room  of  the 
Committee  on  Ways  and  Means  and  saw  this  machine  demonstrated. 
I  w^as  perfectly  amazed  with  what  is  accomplished  by  the  machine. 
In  discussing  the  matter  w'ith  him  I  suggested  that  the  House  of 
Representatives  would  not,  of  course,  want  to  buy  an  experiment, 
but  that  they  w^ould  w^ant  a  successful  device.  He  stated  that  if 
his  device  were  accepted  he  would  be  willing  to  put  up  any  bond 
that  was  necessary  in  order  to  enable  the  House  to  satisfy  itself  of 
the  absolute  success  of  the  machine. 

The  ChxVirman.  The  resolution  does  not  commit  us  to  any  par- 
ticular machine. 

Mr.  Lenroot.  No;  I  understand  that,  and  I  am  speaking  of  any 
machine  that  may  be  tried.  Of  course,  we  w^ould  not  want  to  spend 
$40,000  or  $50,000  on  an  experiment,  and  it  seems  to  me  we  could 
easily  protect  ourselves  in  that  way,  namely,  install  the  machine 
and  demonstrate  its  absolute  success  before  the  Government  spent 
a  single  dollar  on  it.  That,  I  think,  should  be  the  course  which 
should  be  pursued. 


ELECTEICAL    AND    MECHANICAL    SYSTEM    OF    VOTING.  25 

Mr.  Koxop.  Do  you  not  think  it  is  a  fact  that  if  overv  Member 
knew  lie  was  to  be  recorded  on  a  proposition  that  it  would  have  a 
tendency  to  keep  better  ordei  than  we  have  now,  even  with  a  small 
number  present  ? 

Mr.  Lexroot.  I  certainly  do.  As  to  the  matter  of  order,  it  has 
been  my  observation  always  that  there  is  better  order  with  200  or 
300  Members  in  the  House  followin^i;  a  discussion,  because  there  is  to 
be  a  vote  very  shortly  on  the  pro])osition  under  consideration,  than 
when  there  are  only  50  Mem})ers  in  the  House  and  no  record  vote 
to  be  made. 

I  do  not  think  1  have  anythino;  further  to  say,  except  to  most 
heartily  inck)rse  everything  Mr.  (Jarrett  has  said. 

The  Chairmax.  Mr.  Stafford,  we  will  be  ghid  to  liear  from  you. 

STATEMENT  OF  HON.  WILLIAM  H.  STAFFORD,  A  REPRESENT- 
ATIVE IN  CONGRESS  FROM  THE  STATE  OF  WISCONSIN. 

Ml'.  Stafford.  Mi*.  Chairman  and  gentlemen,  when  this  question 
was  first  presented  to  the  Congress  a  few  years  ago  I  refrained  from 
expressing  my  position  in  advocacy  of  it  because  I  realized  that 
there  were  some  practical  legislative  questions  that  had  to  be  con- 
sidered before  it  could  get,  as  1  considered,  the  favorable  indorsement 
of  the  Members  of  the  House. 

With  the  House  Office  Building  as  an  institution  I  think  the  Mem- 
bers will  always,  unless  some  question  of  moment  is  under  consid- 
eration, utilize  their  offices  for  their  individual  work.  However,  I 
think  that  with  the  inauguration  of  this  system  and  by  a  provision  in 
the  rules,  which  is  entirely  compatible  with  existing  conditions,  per- 
mitting Members  10  minutes  to  get  to  the  House  after  the  first  demand 
for  a  roll  call  has  been  made,  that  you  will  save  from  25  minutes  to  a 
half  hour  in  the  time  of  the  Members  and  in  the  time  of  the  House. 
A  few  of  us  remember  when  the  House  was  only  .356,  then  391.  and 
now  435,  and  the  present  membcrsliij)  is  likely  to  grow.  Witli  the 
adfhtion  of  Members  more  and  more  time  will  be  consumeil,  as  Mr. 
Lenroot  has  pointed  out,  in  waiting  for  our  names  to  be  called — a 

Eure  waste  of  time.  If  it  were  known  that  this,  or  a  similar  device, 
ad  been  adopted,  enabling  the  Members  to  have  sufficient  time  to 
come  from  their  offices,  you  would  save  one-half  hour  of  valuable 
time  to  every  individual  Member. 

Mr.  AiJEHCRo.MHii;.  On  every  roll  call  ^ 

Mr.  Sta1'I-()|{D.  Yes.  At  the  present  time  1  do  not  wish  to  launch 
into  a  (hscussion  of  the  revision  df  (he  rules  as  far  as  tiie  Commit  t(>e  of 
the  Whole  is  coneenicd.  Thai  is  n<il  the  (|ucsti()n  Ix'forc  this  com- 
mittee. 

The  ('maikman.   We  iiavc  nothing  to  (h)  with  that. 

Mr.  Staffokd.  I(  is  not  uj)  to  the  Connnittee  on  Kulcs.  It  is  a 
question  whether  or  not  we  can  a(h)|)l  any  (h'vice  which  will  save  the 
time  of  the  435  Membei-s  without  infringing  upon  the  privileges  and 
rights  of  the  majority,  the  minority,  or  the  individual  McndxMs.  1 
have  thought  over  this  a  great  deal  and  I  sec  that  a  rule  could  bo 
adopted  allowing  10  minutes  a  suliicicnt  time — for  a  M(>nil)er  to 
come  from  his  office  and  rcgi-^tcr  his  vote  hy  this  or  some  similar 
device.  I  am  acfjuainlcd  with  two  or  three  Mend)ers  wlio  never  eonm 
to   this   House,   hut    wiio   -pcnd    ;ill   of  their  tinn-  at    their  i-esich'iices. 


26  ELECTRICAL   AND    MECHANICAL    SYSTEM    OE    VOTING. 

Whenever  a  roll  call  is  ordered  they  take  their  autos  and  come  right 
here;  they  get  here  in  time  to  answer  on  the  second  roll  call,  but  of 
course  we  should  not  consider  their  convenience,  those  isolated  cases, 
but  we  should  consider  the  convenience  of  the  greatest  number  of 
Members  and  the  practical  condition  of  affairs,  namely,  the  way  the 
Members  do  their  work  to-day  in  their  offices,  in  connection  with  their 
floor  duties. 

It  is  to  be  assumed,  Mr.  Chau*man,  that  some  practicable  device, 
which  will  be  accurate,  can  register  the  will  of  the  Members.  I  can 
not  see  how  the  adoption  of  such  a  device  will  in  any  way  infringe 
upon  the  rights  or  privileges  of  the  Members.  It  is  accurate;  it  will 
be  permanent;  it  will  register  their  votes  and  in  full  view  of  the  House. 
They  wiU  know  exactly  how  they  vote;  there  can  not  be  any  qiiestion 
about  it;  there  can  not  be  any  manipulation  whereby  it  will  oe  sub- 
ject to  abuse.     It  will  be  an  accurate  register  of  the  vote. 

Firrthermore,  gentlemen,  many  times  a  record  vote  in  the  House 
is  refused  because  of  the  lateness  of  the  session  or  because  it  is  getting 
near  the  hour  of  adjournment  when  our  dinners  are  in  jeopardy. 
If  we  had  this  device  we  would  know  that  we  could  take  a  vote  in  a 
few  minutes  and  that  we  coidd  register  for  all  time  the  opinions  of  the 
majority  and  minority.  I  say  to  you  in  all  frankness  that  I  do  not 
think  that  the  question  of  whether  it  will  lead  to  a  record  vote  in  the 
Committee  of  the  Whole  is  involved.  That  is  a  matter  for  the  Rules 
Committee.  We  could  have  that  to-day  if  we  wanted  it.  That  is  a 
matter  for  subsequent  consideration.  The  only  thing  we  want  to 
consider  now  is  the  practical  question  whether  M^e  are  in  favor  of 
saving  a  half  hour  of  our  time  whenever  there  is  a  roll  call  and  whether 
we  desire  to  cease  wasting  valuable  time,  time  which  we  can  utilize 
to  advantage  in  doing  other  work. 

The  Chairman.  Is  it  not  true  that  as  a  ride  the  roll  must  be  called 
twice  ? 

Mr.  Stafford.  Yes;  the  roll  is  always  called  twice.  The  whole 
tendency  of  the  rules  of  the  House  has  been  to  do  away  with  filibuster- 
ing and  dilatory  tactics. 

The  Chairman.  The  Speaker  is  here,  and  I  understand  he  desires 
to  get  away. 

STATEMENT  OF  HON.  CHAMP  CLARK,  SPEAKER  OF  THE 
HOUSE  OF  REPRESENTATIVES. 

Mr.  Clark.  All  I  want  to  say  about  this  device  is  that  if  it  is 
practicable  I  am  in  favor  of  it,  provided  it  does  not  cost  too  much. 
Somebody  told  me  that  in  one  of  the  long  sessions  we  wasted  two 
whole  months  in  calling  the  roll.  I  have  no  doubt  in  the  world  that 
such  a  device  would  be  a  great  time  saver,  but  the  price  ought  to  be 
reasonable. 

STATEMENT  OF  HON.   WILLIAM  H.  STAFFORD— Continued. 

Mr.  Stafford.  1  was  about  to  say,  in  closing,  that  the  whole 
tendency  of  the  rules  of  the  House  has  been  to  prevent  dilatory  and 
filibustering  tactics.  I  can  not  see  how  we  can  infringe  in  any  wise 
upon  th<'  rights  of  the  minority  by  the  adoption  of  this  system.     The 


ELECTRICAL   AND    MECHANICAL   SYSTEM    OF    VOTING.  27 

minority  should  not  claim  the  right  of  filibusternig  by  having  needless 
roll  calls.  By  the  adoption  of  this  system  the  registering  of  the  vote, 
as  I  see  it,  will  be  expedited:  there  will  be  more  frequent  record  votes, 
the  time  of  the  Members  will  be  saved  and  none  of  their  privileges 
will  be  invaded. 

Mr.  Koxop.  On  the  question  of  filibustering,  can  vou  point  to  any 
one  instance  in  the  House  of  Ke}>resentatives  where  a  filibuster 
defeated  a  bill  ? 

Mr.  Staffoed.  Oh.  3'cs. 

Mr.  Miller.  The  shipping  bill. 

Ml'.  Koxop.  That  was  in  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Stafford.  I  remember  a  filibuster  inaugurated  by  ^'Ii*.  Mann 
in  the  closhig  days  of  the  Sixty-first  Congress,  when  we  started  in  on 
the  war  claims  proposition;  the  fili])uster  started  at  12  o'clock  and 
continued  until  10  o'clock  Friday:  it  began  the  next  morning  and 
continued  until  the  next  Sunday  afternoon,  and  I  might  add  that 
I  was  an  humble  participant  in  that  great  event. 

Mr.  Koxop.  Filibusters  may  be  effective  on  the  3d  of  March  or 
along  toward  the  end  of  a  session  which  must  close  under  the  Consti- 
tution, but  I  think  the  instances  are  very  few  where  a  filibuster  in  the 
House  really  accomplishes  anything  at  this  time. 

Mr.  Stafford.  I  quite  agree  with  you;  under  the  rules  of  the 
House  a  filibuster  is  impracticable,  because  the  Rules  Committee, 
backed  by  a  majority  of  the  House,  can  at  any  time  bring  in  a  rule 
which  will  make  the  filibuster  ineft'ective.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  we 
are  here  for  business,  and  we  might  as  well  face  this  one  fact,  that 
with  the  legislation  of  Congress  becoming  greater  and  greater  as  the 
years  go  on  we  must  find  some  mcsms  whereby  we  can  restrict  time- 
wasting  methods  and  concentrate  it  on  real  legislation.  As  1  look 
forAvarci  to  the  legislative  history  of  the  House  I  believe  we  are  goin^ 
to  be  in  session  seven,  eight,  and  nine  months  each  year,  and  we  should 
try  to  so  conserve  the  valuable  time  of  the  Members  in  the  House  as 
to  bring  those  sessions  to  as  early  a  close  as  possible.  We  have  plenty 
of  legislation  to  consider;  the  calendar  is  just  filled  witli  proj)osed 
legislation,  and  I  hope  you  gentlemen  will  favor  some  device  which 
will  certainh"  save  the  time  of  the  Members  of  the  House  on  each 
individual  roll  call  at  least  one-half  hour.  I  will  not  uiKlertak(>  to  "^o 
into  the  ([uestion  of  a  record  vote  in  the  Committee  of  tli(>  "Wiiole. 
That  is  another  quest  ion  entirely  and  one  that  is  nlt(M-ioi'  to  tlie  (pies- 
tion  under  consideration. 

The  Chairman.  We  arc  much  obliged  to  3'ou,  Mr.  Stafford. 

STATEMENT  OF  HON.   MICHAEL  K.   REILLY,  A  REPRESENTA- 
TIVE   IN    CONGRESS    FROM    THE    STATE    OF    WISCONSIN. 

Mr.  Kkii.lv.  1  just  want  to  say  that  I  am  lieailily  in  favor  of  the 
adoption  of  sonl(^  mechanical  device  that  will  enable  the  House  to 
spend  more  time  in  legislating  and  less  tini<'  in  calling  the  roll.  I 
agree  with  Mr.  Stafford  that  as  to  what  effect  the  adoption  of  such 
device  will  have;  in  ('onnnittce  of  th(^  Whole  is  aside  from  this  (pjes- 
tion  and  has  nothing  to  do  with  this  j)ro|)osition  at  all. 

The  Chairman.  "Vou  nvo  exactly  right  ahout  that,  and  I  am  gl;id 
you  have  made  that  point. 

4.51(J5S 


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